Bomb blasts ravage Gujarat
At least 55 people have been killed and hundreds injured in a series of 19 low intensity blasts which shook the Indian city of Ahmedabad on 26th July 2008. The bombs were planted in tiffins, usually used for food, hanging on bicycles stationed in various parts of the city.
August 10th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
All these new small Islamic groups are nothing but the Pakistani ISI in disguise, under different names to take attention of Pakistan as the culprit.
Invade Pakistan, end it.
August 11th, 2008 at 6:04 am
Amandeep Singh, Invade Pakistan? lol The whole reason behind the attacks is because of assault on Muslims, then why assault more? Doesn’t it just make more terrorists? Iraq and Afghanistan invastions hasn’t made terrorism any less, why should invading Pakistan stop or lessen terrorism?
August 11th, 2008 at 1:04 pm
Hare Krishna
Namaste
It seems Shyam is a typical Hindu. See no evil, speak no evil and hear no evil.
If you look at all the trouble spots in the world, whether it is Algeria, Chechenia, Egypt, Palestine, Kashmir, melasia or Philipines and now even China, one party to a conflict is Islam.
Even in the West where we have all the freedom, terrorism from one section of the ethnic minorities is in the forefront.
Terrorism and terrorists do not need any cause, only an excuese. India was divided so that Musloms can live in peace in Pakistan and Hindus in India. What a joke?
Then what could we expect with people like Shyam in our middest!
Devotee
August 11th, 2008 at 6:14 pm
IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THESE TERRORISTS ARE IGNORANT,HEARTLESS AND OUT OF CONTROL. THEY SHOULD KILL THEMSELVES TO FIND PLACE IN HEAVEN, RATHER THAN INNOCENT PEOPLE WHO WORK AND LIVE TO HELP OTHERS AND DO GOOD IN LIFE.
August 13th, 2008 at 8:51 am
Leaving them alone wont work and invading them or attacking them wont work either. How do you stop people who have an agenda to convert the whole world to their ideology?
-Muski
August 13th, 2008 at 10:37 am
Namaste Devotee, and Hare Krishna.
Please find the reply to your comments.
‘It seems Shyam is a typical Hindu. See no evil, speak no evil and hear no evil.’
- I haven’t made any comments to suggest that. I’m glad you used the word ‘seems’ but I assure you I am not. I’ve done my degree research on Indian communal violence and religion and terrorism.
‘If you look at all the trouble spots in the world, whether it is Algeria, Chechenia, Egypt, Palestine, Kashmir, melasia or Philipines and now even China, one party to a conflict is Islam.’
- Didn’t people say that about Jews? Now what do they say? Jews were a minority being persecuted! This is only going to be fate of modern Muslim history. Is islam unified? Of course not, they are killing each other the shia and sunnis and the doctrines and interpretations of the Quran and Hadith differ across Islam. They call for unity because there isn’t unity. It is ignorance, when people think that Islam is unified. They have their differences! It is not a single party as you say.
‘Even in the West where we have all the freedom, terrorism from one section of the ethnic minorities is in the forefront.’
-But why? Was it always like this? Or was this after 9/11, and the invasion of Muslim countries with the large influence of wahibi Islam that now prevails amongst Muslims heavily especially as they have earnt money from Oil sales funded by the Saudi government.
‘Terrorism and terrorists do not need any cause, only an excuese. India was divided so that Musloms can live in peace in Pakistan and Hindus in India. What a joke?’
-Actually, Pakistan was created as an Islamic nation and India a secular nation, emphasis on secular, because of the Indian Congress. It was not as you suggest for Hindus!
-You say that terrorism doesn’t need a ‘cause’ but a ‘excuse’. I believe that terrorists do need a cause most of the time. Otherwise they’d be blowing everyone up for just being ‘infidels’. Although this has happened in the past, especially with Indian history! In the modern period, it hasn’t occurred as much, it was only with the occupation of Israel, Muslim taking pressures in Gujarat and communist rule in China, which they felt oppressed. I agree the Quran doesn’t help the problem with its messages of peace and war that aren’t clear. Anyhow, when we oppress each other in past or present, it awakens a terrorist spark sometimes. Islam is just used to justify it in this case. This is what is happening in most places that you mention. Kashmir and some others are exceptions to this, I admit. One person’s terrorist is another’s freedom fighter. To them, they are freedom fighting which is their cause.
‘Then what could we expect with people like Shyam in our middest!’
-I do not know what you mean by this.
Devotee, your comments are sketchy so you only got sketchy replies. I recommend, if you are interested to read works by Sudhir Kakar, Indian identity. At least, you can understand how Muslim and Hindu psychology works in India- you can understand how feeling oppressed can lead one to become violent and take out pressures on others.
August 15th, 2008 at 12:22 am
Shyam sounds like a isckonite scum, so its pretty obvious why he has his opinion. HAri krishnas don’t even consider themselves hindu, unless they need money or need support under the hindu banner when they get caught in child sexual abuse scandals or financial scandals.
Anyway scum like shyam should be blown up by the sullahs instead of the poor hindus that get caught up in the bombings. If came into power shyam and other scum like him would be used as cannon fodder.
August 16th, 2008 at 7:19 pm
Here we are debating about this topic and already the scrap has started. Shyam, my friend, are you talking about the same muslims in India that enjoy the same freedoms as the Hindus do in India. Hindus in pakistan do not get the same rights. The Indian Govt bends backwards to protect and apease the muslims. Whereas in pakistan the Govt sponsors killing of Hindus and destruction of their property.You say the muslims are not united.Absolutely incorrect because they are when it comes to infidels.You try and approach them when they are shooting each other, you will find their guns will point at you. By the way what pressures are they under in Gujarat. They have enjoyed peace in this state for decades even when they use to blow things up.In 2002 however, they crossed the line. Enough was enough and the public reacted accordingly. I do not agree with anyone killing innocent people , be they Hindu or muslim..And the people that torched the train were majority muslims from the surrounding areas and not highly trained terrorists. I think you need to read impartial literature from different historians and researchers. The truth is no matter how open minded we are and believe me , I understand what you are saying, but they have a relentless agenda and will not rest until the world conforms to their ideals. Jai Bharat.Jai Hind.
August 19th, 2008 at 6:11 am
LOL Actually Kulu Patel, I just said Hare Krishna back to Devotee as a mark of respect cause he said it to me. I’m not part of Iskcon.
However, calling people ‘Scum’ and ’sullahs’ and asking for them to be blown up makes u like a terrorist supporter! And fighting terrorism is what I think most of us are supporting but in different ways. Lets not get into what the Iskcon devotees do and whether they should be used as ‘cannon fodder’. Surely, we are more mature than that? Are you not?
August 19th, 2008 at 6:43 am
Hey Dillip Patel, I agree with most of what you are saying. I stated that India was a secular country and devotee was under the impression that it was a Hindu country. Yes, sometimes Muslims can be united when they come under pressure from outside forces or ‘infidels’. This goes the same for Chrsitians who become ecumenical when under threat and Hindus who have recently been uniting themselves under Hindutva and so on and so on.
Pressures on Muslims and Hindus in Gujarat are there, but not necessary ONLY in the form of religion. Im Gujarati myself, like you i do not beleive that innocent people should die over religion. We must remember that there are other factors other than religion that people turn to violence-Modernity, poverty and economic factors are so important-but hardly mentioned. In fact in academic studies it is often said that Hindus and Muslims need eachother to take out pressures out on each other for their own sense of vulnerabilities and insecurities. The more they start to feel insecure the more they unite and more the pressure gains, they use the unity to intensify their feelings and release steam on the ‘other’ group. Eventually they become divided and feel that eachother are out to get them. . The Muslims feel that Hindus are out to get them and the Hindus feel that Muslims are out to get them.
Gujarat is very important that the violence has happened there. Gujarat has been modernising rapidly and both groups of Muslims and Hindus have been competing for space and economic welfare. What happens when one a Muslim looses out or when a Hindu looses out economically? What do they do? Where do they turn? They turn to their own identity and religion. Religion is very often used to release pressures of life. Very often the people that turn to Hindutva are in loss of money or income and people that turn to Islamic fundamentalism are also in that loss of income boat- or feel like they are loosing out.
These Hindu and Muslim unity groups help them gear up their pressures of loss not only releasing it on their God but also blaming the losses on the ‘other’ group. They then find the ‘other’ group as the blame of their loss. The Hindus blame the Muslims and the Muslims blame the Hindus. Thus, the divide starts. In order to carry on seeking interest in this divide- people turn to history. Muslims and Hindus both think about their past glory and loss- usually which are violent. These violent stories of how they lost to the ‘other’ are retold everytime they attend their unity group and the violent history helps them accept that violence is okay to project because it has been done to us in the past.
I wrote a dissertation on this but it isnt handy with me now, so im a little sketchy on writing about all this right now.. But do u get the idea? Terrorism and violence isnt wholly religious but there are other factors involved. Sometimes they have nothing to with religion but its made to become about religion when people are competing for economic welfare space etc
There are different factors. Im just portraying one really. That of western scholarship - psychoanalysists and sociologists. sorry for the sketchy reply again.
August 19th, 2008 at 7:59 pm
I find the western analytical sociological historical arguments try to blur out the effect of religion when it comes to the chrito-islamists but are ready to blame the superstitious Hindus for allowing religion to cause sati, caste, hatred, etc. Frankly it is a two faced argument not worth real scholarship.
There is no question that the human animal is the same everywhere. But if religious ideology does not influence behavior then it is irrelevant. That is as a cause-effect empirical phenomenon (not “just” a transcendental idea). The world view of reality given by religions and secularist teachings very much affects behavior and response to stimuli as poverty and injustice. If the world view is that I am the favorite of God and going to heaven by hurting infidels, then my religion is causing my action that is harmful. If my world view is that I need to struggle to find my own moksha by ignoring the world, then my religion is causing my inaction that is harmful.
To excuse himsa on economic tribulations is reasonable in a Marxist paradigm. However, without a Marxist, christian, or islamic ideology behind it, most poor persons have not tried to kill to improve their lot in life. To excuse himsa on a political basis is to confuse the effect and cause. The power struggle is a reflection of ideological values first. It is the religions, after all, that is the source of MORAL teaching in a community. Whenever a person who claims to belong to a religion fails to live morally, it is that religion’s responsibility to find out why the failure occurs and thus intervene and fix it. It is rationalization for the religion to excuse the immorality of its’ own while condemning the infidel and heathen. This rationalization is itself the immoral act of the religion as a religion. Immoral religions - or the immoral beliefs of certain religious groups - need to labeled such and identified to reduce the power they have in the world. The economics and politics merely reflect the ideology to dress it up in a pseudosecular construct (like laundered illegal money).
hariaum
August 20th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
Namaste Shyam
You write ” How feeling oppressed can lead one to become violent (U mean terrorist) and take out pressure on others.
If You want to know the oppressed people, then you should talk to Koptic Christians of Egypt, any Jew living in an Islamic country and Hindus of Pakistan, Bangladesh and now Malaysia,
although hardly any Hindus are left in Pak.
We are all equally oppressed in the West but we do not become suiside bombers.
My firend, wake up and be proud of your Hindu roots. Do you know there are hardly any Hindus in prison in the West, UK, USA, Canada etc? Out of 7000 Asian prisoners in UK jail, less than 225 are Hindus?
Our youngsters do not invade prisons, they invade universities for knowledge. No wonder there is hardly any unemployment amongst our younger generation.
Please don’t tell me that we are a priviliged class and we get good jobs as a favour.
Jai Shree Krishna
Devotee
August 20th, 2008 at 10:13 pm
hi shyam
your explanation is definitely sketchy. You forget that for the last 1000 0r so years Hindus were not in control. It is not fair to blame Hindus for the muslim community staying behind. They have had their own destiny in pakistan for the last 50 years but still the majority muslim community are not any better off than their counterparts in India. Also ,there is no competetion between Hindus and Muslims for progress in Gujarat, since the muslim community does not integrate so well with the rest. Those muslims that have done well are the people that have come forward, integrated. or got an education or gone in to buisiness . People are being opressed everyday regrdless of their religion.But they do not blow innocent people up. They do not vent their anger on anyone else. I also believe there are moderate muslims who do not subscribe to this agenda,but they hold no power, therefore nothing can be achieved . All muslims cannot be labelled as terrorists.
I agree in some way with navins analsis. As far as calling India secular, well it is a majority Hindu country so why not call it that. Secular is ok if the opposition also believe it.In India however, being secular is like sitting on the fence watching the events unfold. It is a comfort zone for those who do not wish to choose sides. sitting on the sidelines give more ammunition to the terrorists. We all want to live in peace with everyone in the society and I dont have a problem with people following Islam. I do have a problem with people being killed in the name of religion.
August 21st, 2008 at 6:45 am
Hi Navin, my mistake.. The western (also eastern) studies about the Gujarat violence do not blur out religion as my first post may suggest. They open up other reasons maintaining that religion has been an influence. Therefore, the ecomonic competition stresses means that people turn more to religion than ever. The most suited groups that people turn to in these times of crisis seem to be ones that blame the ‘other’ of the problems that they are going through, especially the loss of loot. Therefore, religion is a factor alongside with others such as socio-economic (although I seem to be the only one that accepts socio-economic stress- lol)
Devotee, I agree that Hindus should arise and awake, I also went to University to study. I am Hindu. Proud of roots? I am admitedly a 21 year old, just graduated with a lot more to learn still. Im only ’semi-proud’ of my roots. Our history, I have been reading at the moment and it is not always things that I have been ‘proud’ of in it. This is natural for most people of religion. Not many Christians are proud of the slave trade which is arguably their roots. Not all Muslims are proud of past Muslim kings etc. etc. Anyhow, thank you for letting me know that Hindus are not often in jail in West, it is very nice to know this. Is this the same in the ‘majority Hindu country’ India?
Dillip, Muslims and Hindus do not have a ecomomic competition? Almost all people in Gujarat are in competition especially as its a changing economy. Some loose out and are naturally turn to religionvery often the suited religion is one that blames the other. Yes, Hindus do not blow people up, but the violence does occur in other forms, however not on larger scale as Islamic terrorism.Keeping in mind that the Gujarati violence by Hindus led to rape and torture and burning of Muslim women and children and burning of them and their houses. Yes, we do not bomb everyone but Hindus too are violent but in different ways.
Everyone, If the Quran can influence Muslims into being violent and terrorists. Can our own scripts and history do the same? I found that in Hindu, the use of the violence in the Mahabharata, Ramayana, and Bhagavad Gita are used for justification of violence now. At the same time our history loosing to Muslims and the violence of Shivaji against them is role-modelled. Do you think Hindus are also influenced into violence like the Muslims are by our religion and history?
I hope I do not cause too much of a stir. Beleive it or not I sympathise here and there with Hindutva!
August 21st, 2008 at 8:07 am
Again , a very good explanation by a Devotee .
August 21st, 2008 at 9:45 am
Hare Krishna
Namaste every one
First of all let me make it clear that Lord Krishna is the GOD of every Hindu and not the sole privilige and the possession of the followers of ISKCON.
So no one should assume that if some one say Hare Krishna, he or she is a member of ISKCON, although I have nothing against
ISKCON or SHM or any such sect or organization that promote Hindu religion and culture in their own way, in their own manner
and belief.
Hinduism is not a narrow minded sect or religion. It is a way of life and it has grown rich by adopting goodness from any source, as long as it benefits mankind.
Secondly I am proud the way we are discussing this problem of bomb blasts and terrorism. Even if we may not agree with each other, we do agree that we all have equal rights and obligations
to express our views and thoughts in a Hindu way, in a manner befitting our great religion, the noblest religion in the world.
Yes my friend Shyam, I do know that Bharat is a secular nation. In fact there are no Hindu nation in the world. The only Hindu nation, the tiny Nepal has shed its Hindu tag and become secular after Maoist took control at the last election.
I have read the Indian constitution, abriged version. But do you know that India was divided on a two nation theory, Pakistan, a homeland for Muslim and India, a homeland for Hindus?
Baba Dr. Ambedkar who wrote Indian constitution, even suggested that all Muslims should move to Pakistan and vice versa? He even suggested making Bharat a Hindu nation, as he was a visionary and could see the problems ahead which Gandhi and Nehru could not?
Could any one define what secularism means! It means that the Government recognizes all religion but supports none. If you believe in this defination, then India is not a secular nation but it is an Islamic nation.
You may ask me why. The answer is simple, as there are so many Sharia laws incorporated in the Indian constitution.
The Indian Government pays Huj subsidy which is against secularism.
Muslim are permitted four wives which is not allowed even in most Muslim countries.
Has any one heard about Sha Banu case when the Indian Government amended the constitution so that when a Muslim man divorse his wife, he does not have to pay the maintenance, against the Supreme Court Ruling?
There are numerous examples that makes a mockery of Indian Secularism. This is not the fault of the Muslims in any way. It is human nature to grab whatever we are offered. But it the fault, the stupidity of the Indian Government and the Hindu majority.
India should have a Uniform Constitution based on UN Charter whereby every one is treated fairly and equally under one law, irrespective of their religion, culture or Origine.
Yes, I agree that most Muslims do not believe in suiside bombings and terrorism. In fact there are certain Muslim sects, like Daudi Bhora Muslims, Ismali Muslims, the followers of HHH Aga Khan
and Ahmedia Muslims who are as peace loving as us the Hindus, if not more.
Their children, both boys and girls are highly educated. In fact my GP and dental surgeon are both Muslims and so is my solicitor. But unfortunately they are in a tiny minority who do not have much say in their religion and culture.
Yes, I would not call any one a Scum or Sullahs. The truth speaks for itself and truth when mixed with decency and culture is the best way to fight falsehood. But their is no need to be a “Hindu Surrogate Apologist” as our society, our religion and our culture are full of such Surrogate Apologists.
I appreciate Navin and Dilip’s contribution, as well as that of Shyam and the rest.
Hare Krishna
Devotee
August 22nd, 2008 at 12:24 pm
shyam stop writing gibberish, Shivaji fought for freedom and it is sickening to compare and equate it with Muslim violence, even during the worst persecution of Hindus, he treated ordinary Muslims normally and even gave money for the upkeep of their sufi tombs and mosques.
Oh right, so now its the Hindus “burned Muslim women and children in Gujarat” card again, why don’t you tell us what started the riots in the first place?
Even if some did, there is no moral equivalence between the two, Muslims have been raping and massacring Hindus nonstop since the 7th century CE, as recently as 1971, at least 2 million Hindus were massacred in Bangladesh, in 1989 the entire Kashmiri Pandit community was chased out of the Valley and are still in refugee camps.
By contrast, the official toll released by Congress was something alone the lines of 750 Muslims killed and 250 Hindus dead (not including Godhra i.e.), so anyone can see it wasn’t the fundoo Hindus going around raping and killing the innocent and pure Muslim lambs but it was a two way street, and naturally since Hindus are like an over 85% majority in Gujarat, more Muslims got killed, this is what is dubbed as the “holocaust” and “genocide” insulting the memory of the real holocaust (of the Jews) and genocides that Hindus went through at the hands of Muslims.
The main problem isn’t mullah omar or osama, it’s usually the so called “liberals” (and some white arse licking “conservatives” such as Dinesh D’souza) that are the main problem in tackling Islamic terrorism, they are the ones who are constantly making excuses for Islamic violence and creating a moral equivalence between the actions of “kafirs” and the “momins” where none exists. So the first step to tackling Islamic terrorism would be to get rid of Leftist/Commie gibberish which facilitates the said terrorism.
August 23rd, 2008 at 6:39 pm
Yeah i do support stuff against scum like shyam and devotee. I rather they be used as cannon fodder then hardcore hindus like myself.
August 23rd, 2008 at 8:57 pm
shyam
You are hell bent on proving your point. How can you compare writings of Gita which says to take up arms for truth and justice with others that tell you take a life because they do not conform to their ideals. You have along way to go my friend.Keep on reading and researching, but make sure you read the right stuff. If you dont have faith in our own writers then perhaps you should try others . Majority have the same conclusion. Your arguments are baseless. I agree with you saying the loss of life the rapes etc was wrong, but it is always the innocent that have paid the price for terrorist activities everywhere.
I agree with Harish .Get rid of the root cause .Incitement. maybe we may see peace for future generations.
August 24th, 2008 at 6:48 am
I agree on all of your points Devotee. Im glad people look beyond religion for problems in the world and acknowleging other Muslims who have done well. We shouldn’t always put all Muslims in one boat. I know how annoying it is when it happens to me as a Hindu. We should treat people not as statistics but as people. I love looking at micro level sociology which really gets down to looking at people or individuals groups.
Religion is a factor but not the only one in my opinion. Many people take narrow looks on things such as religion and it is a shame. Im glad there are some people here that will speak so well on these subjects. I will definatly look up the constitution. Where can I find it?
Most comments have been great! Especially those without abusive lang. I, like devotee, appreciate it.
Hare Krishna
August 24th, 2008 at 6:14 pm
Hare Krishna
Namaste All
When some one has to stoop so low, be rude, crude and use foul language, then surely he could not have a valid, truthful or a worthwhile point to prove, a sensible message to pass on to others, to readers.
It is obvious that this is an angry young man who is taking out his frustration but mercefully through his pen rather than other foul and obvious means.
I feel, I am afraid of his wellbeing. Perhaps he may have been brought-up, through no fault of his own, in a hostile, deprived enviroment unworthy of our rich and superior cultural heritage.
No amount of rudeness, crudeness offends me. Perhaps I should remember him in my prayers when I pray to Lord Krishna for the salvation of the lost souls.
Thank you Shyam for agreeing with most I have written. Unfortunately I can not say the same about your views on Gujarat riots, why Muslims turn to suiside bombings and many more of your views.
But I agree, I feel you have as much right as any one else to express your views, especially as you use a polite tone, polite language befitting our great cultural and religious heritage.
I can understand your shortfalls, as you are a very young man, just out of Uni. I am at the other end of the scale. I am in my eight decade, at the end of the long and some times a painful journey.
I have seen all, experienced the horrors of the Secind World War and the partition of India, followed ny the worst massacre, butchery, slaughter in the annals of human history.
As I said before, there is no better way to make or to prove your, our point than by being truthful, objective and mix it with
politeness. No one can hide or bend the truth for ever. Night is always followed by day, darkness by light and ignorance by knowledge.
After all our religion and our culture is the best, most advance,noble, scientific and human friendly amongst all religions. That is why we the Hindus are respected throughout the West.
Can we find such books, knowledge as we have in our holy books of Bhagwad Gita, Ramayana, Mahabharata, Upnishads and Vedas? Surely not.
As it is Janmastami today, I am off to celebrate it at our local temple.
Hare Krishna and best wishes to all on this auspicious day.
Devotee
August 25th, 2008 at 11:31 am
The article says:
1 “..Six bombs were found and diffused elsewhere in Ahmedabad that night..”
2 Amandeep Singh says: Invade Pakistan, end it.
3 Shyam says: “..why should invading Pakistan stop or lessen terrorism?..”
1..There are over 200 million Muslims living in India who are all unwelcome Pakistanis & Bangladeshis living in our secular Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist, Jewish and Catholic India, incited to Islamic fervour and chided along quietly from the background by THAT (& others) top Muslim Bollywood superstars under such instruction by their fanatic mullas, and who all call themselves Indians but are loyal Pakistanis living in India.
So, how can the article claim or justify “six bombs were found?” .. I say all 200 million Muslims living in India, all unwelcome and unwanted, is a potential terrorist and therefore for there are 200 million live bombs in India all of which need to be “de-fused” in one form or another .. so let us not kid ourselves of the potential of Islamic terror and of the devastation which this enemy within can inflict upon India.
Just listen to the Pakistani politicians embedded withing the Delhi Congress Govt. like Omar Abdulla but to name one, backed by Sabhana Azmi and funded by THOSE Muslim superstars via the Mosque, and Sonia Gandhi hell bent on wiping the floor with the Hindu faith giving these Muslim ie. Pakistani politicians living in India quiet and tacit support by not taking any action againt them.
2. Invade pakistan Amandeep? That sounds too expensive an option to me even if pro-Muslim Sonia Gandhi approved such action, and likely to be very bloody with huge loss of life. We are peaceful men and women but with the potential of turning yoddha’s simply to protect our cultural motherland from re-invasion by the enemy within, the unwanted Muslims in India and now the ruling “Islamic” Congress party.
So why invade?
I say remove these 200 million strong Pakistani & Bangladeshi people living in our Hindu & Sikh land by “pursuasive” political and diplimatic means which the masses will lead drive forward “somehow”, rendering the Congress “impotent” in this respect by the Hndu & Sikh uprising, (its doable).
Let the Muslims take all their belongings, money & maal milkat with them, give them a safe passage out of India and into the Muslim areas of Indian Kashmir, give the separatists along with Omar Abdullah, Subhana Azmi, Sharmila Tagore & co. the independence they seek and hand over kashmir to pakistan, packaged and giftwrapped with a present of 200 million Muslims who are Pakistanis anyway. Then, do what Israel have done .. build a wall along the full length of the border, ban Muslim entry into Inida, and blow the bloody human rights who can go to Kashmir with the Muslims so they can protect their rights but now with the Pakistani government.
3. Agree with Shaym that invading Pakistan would not lessen Islamic terrorism in India. Its their country which we would be invading.
All too simplistic isn’t it? Sheer frustration I guess.
August 25th, 2008 at 8:39 pm
The difference in our scriptural context of a just world and theirs is the difference between a full spectrum of light that illuminates the complexity of importance of the totality of truth v theirs of a binary simple model. If good and evil are judged in simply belonging to the right group and reward is either entry to heaven or not, you get an ideology that supports irrational thinking, propagates the us/them dichotomy, and creates himsa. If good and evil are understood to be complex and our judgements on these to be yet another example of the finite human mind, then even a just war is considered to have spiritual consequences. Thus, though on the surface there are similar “appeals” for a just war, in reality the construct of justice is quite different.
To argue that a man who loses his temper and shouts at his wife is just as guilty as a man who habitually kills his serial wives is on the surface pointing to the same himsa but, for the sake of quantitative simplicity, misses the qualitative difference in the nature of the person. It is a foolish argument that states they are the same - one nurtured by those that kill to justify their own immorality and believed by those overly zealous in their idea that all religions are fundamentally the same (and thus become used by the first group to propagate himsa).
hariaum
September 4th, 2008 at 6:19 pm
If you attack this community, they fight back. If you don’t attack them, they attack.
There has to be a moderate solution and maybe in India, the land of Krishna and Buddha can solve it first. There are not only two solutions to the problem.
1. The government should continue to promote and prop-up moderate and liberal mullahs in attempts to draw supporters to their particular cause.
2. In Britain, Muslims have complained that the British government is spying on mosques. Perhaps we should use Muslims to spy on suspected fundamentalist outfits to point to those mosques which are preaching hate.
September 9th, 2008 at 6:30 pm
Anyone who thinks he can make peace with Islam does not know the nature of Islam. I would highly recommend a book by Dr Koenraad Elst: “Decolonizing The Hindu Mind”. The more the Indian Government tries to appease Islam, the more bombings will occurr until India becomes like Pakistan and even then the Muslims will fight amoung themselves. Islam is a religion that is not content to be one amoung others - it must be the only one in the world - and this means eliminating all others - it is the same for Christianity (only the Christians are more subtle and less brutal in the modern era but not in the past). The bottom line of these two Monotheistic Religions is to convert the world to its belief by whatever means available - they will use the stick or the carrot which ever is appropiate. This well known truth must be in the forefront of the Hindu mind when he or she comes to deal with members of these religions. Indeed, there are individual Muslims and Christians who would want to live in peace with others but as soon as they embrace their religion and live by it, their attitude changes. History has shown that Hindus did not go around the world forcing people to their beliefs, in fact, because Hindus think that knowledge is sacred and powerful, it was not given to every tom, dick and harry to misuse - in the old days, the Guru had to be satisfied of your moral worth before certain teachings were imparted.
The above points are ment to call attention to those Hindus who are looking at current events and blaming Hindus with equal measure for the atrocities committed on both sides. The question is who started this fight? Who are the aggressors? Hindus never went to Muslims’ and Christians’ lands, beat them up, take away their lands and forcefully convert them in droves. There are those who think that the Gita advocates war, on the contrary, the Gita advocates standing up to the aggressor. Krishna, Arjuna and the Pandavas did not want war - they wanted an a peaceful settlement of the Kingdom; but the aggressors wanted to wipe the Pandavas off the face of the earth, so war became inevitable; it is then that Krishna advises Arjuna to fight and not lie down and die. Hindus must fight the aggression of Islam on the battle fields and places of learning. Our scriptures, science and philosophy are sharper weapons than theirs - let us equip ourselves well to defend our culture and religion.
September 10th, 2008 at 12:38 am
jai shri krishna
so much hatred for muslims. my dear brothers and sisters it concerns me deeply you all want to project your own anxieties and fears onto muslims / pakistanis.
many of you appear to advocate some form of ethnic cleansing - this is very scary. hinduism has survived for millenia and will continue to do so.
do any of you not have any muslim friends? in the uk or india? i can assure you they are not too different to us in what they want in life.
is our interaction with our fellow human beings so limited? is this the genuine hindu voice?
kamlesh
om shaanti shaanti om
September 10th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
Yes and the Jews should love their Nazi neighbors, the american indians should love their conquistadors, and american blacks should embrace the religion of their enslavers. But, above all, christians, muslims, multinationals… should never have to confront their own ugliness and immorality.
We should distinguish between a person that is God made and an ideology that is human made. The atman trumps the actions which trump the words, but we should boldly criticize the words that create hateful action- whether Hindu, christian, islamic, corporate, or otherwise in source. (I don’t believe too many of your friendly muslims and christians will say that you don’t have to join their group to fully benefit from god’s benevolence. I agree, don’t had the individual, but I do believe it is legitimate to call himsic actions and ideas as himsic.
hariaum
September 10th, 2008 at 6:01 pm
Yes and the Jews should love their Nazi neighbors, the american indians should love their conquistadors, and american blacks should embrace the religion of their enslavers. But, above all, christians, muslims, multinationals… should never have to confront their own ugliness and immorality.
We should distinguish between a person that is God made and an ideology that is human made. The atman trumps the actions which trump the words, but we should boldly criticize the words that create hateful action- whether Hindu, christian, islamic, corporate, or otherwise in source. (I don’t believe too many of your friendly muslims and christians will say that you don’t have to join their group to fully benefit from god’s benevolence. I agree, don’t hate the individual, but I do believe it is legitimate to call himsic actions and ideas as himsic.
hariaum
September 11th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
Namaste
I am afraid Kamlesh’s thinking is wide spread in our community. It comes out of ignorence and trying to be holier than thou attitude.
“Hinduism has surived for millenia?” How many Hindu nations are there in Asis, in the world today? None.
The last Hindu nation, Nepal has now become secular under Maoist who won the election and deposed the tyrant king.
How many Muslim nations were there 1500 years ago, none and today there are 70. They want to unite the world under the Flag of Islam and who can blame them when most of us think like Kamlesh?
Do you know most Muslims regret the partition of India, as by now they would be nearly 40% of the united India population and in charge of the country.
My friend, do you know practically the whole of Asia was Hindu some 3 thousand years ago?
The Indinesian Airlines is known as GARUDA and in these Muslim countries. Malaisia, Indonesia etc a son is known as
BHUMIPUTRA and daughter BHUMIPUTRI.
The ruins of the biggest Hindu temple are in Cambodia.
The word Devi goes after many Muslim women’s names.
If these Muslims want to live with us then why Pakistan was created? Do you know what happened to Hindus in Pak and now
happening to Hindus in Bangladesh?
Wake up my friend before it is too late. Soon we wan’t have a country to call our own, to fall back to. Look what happened to Jews when they were stateless.
That is why they fight tooth and nail to save Israel.
Devotee
September 13th, 2008 at 7:08 pm
hi
I agree with devotee. Some of our lot need to get their heads out of the sand to be polite . Yes I have muslim friends and are moderate but i also know if it came to thr crunch ,where i stand as i would probably do the same. we are gradually being marginalised all over the world. this is because we tend to practise ahimsa as that has been advocated for decades and we have become a nation of passive people .sorry. but thats the truth and we all know it. unfortunately other religions do not advocate ahimsa. What we have forgotten is our dharma which lord Krishna advocates in The Gita. Fight for truth,justice and in defence of your dharma.
September 14th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
Kamlesh is just a wanker who I hope experiences Islamic love personally when they do another round of bombings in UK, and it’s a time waste to even dignify such head in the sand types with a long response with facts because you know they are wilfully blind and repeat lies to appear “kind hearted” or not toe the PC (Politically Correct) line.
September 15th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
jai shri krishna
my dear navin and devotee - many thanks for replying to my post. both of you appear to be “hindu zionists”, I suggest you read up on gandhi-ji’s thinking on the state of israel. you also seem to have conveniently forgotten chandra bose and his links to the nazi regime.
i believe without bose and gandhi (as 2 sides of the same coin) we would not have our beloved india which both of you somehow feel will be islamic unless we ….. action a holocaust against the muslims? can you confirm that’s what you want? our nation does not need the political narrative of another for its survival.
for your information my wife is a gujarati muslim of east african heritage like myself. my first wife was uk born and left me for a black man after 3 years of marriage.
in my experience i can assure you that in britain at least most gujarati muslims are patriotic indian certainly when it comes to pakistan.
your views of muslims are very chillingly similar to racist organisations like the bnp (check their website). i sincerely hope your vitriolic diatribes make you feel better about yourselves and with the anonymity of the internet this can compensate for your damaged manhoods.
i beg you to take the path of peace ….
kamlesh
September 15th, 2008 at 4:26 pm
Kamlesh is just an insulated moron who doesn’t go outside much. I hope muslims show him some of their love and aspirations.
September 17th, 2008 at 2:20 pm
Kamlesh -
While I agree that talk of ethnic cleansing is wrong, to say that Hinduism will survive without intervention is naive. To what degree will it survive? In diluted yoga classes?
That, unfortunately, does not constitute much.
I have to ask, then, how did not have to convert to Islam and what religion your children will be?
Keshav
September 17th, 2008 at 11:51 pm
Agree completely with you Harish Duggirala, but reply to Kamlesh we must.
Kamlesh,
There is no shame in being a “hindu zionist” as you choose to put it. Men like you today are giving away our cultural Hindu motherland to the Pakistanis living in India .. 200 million of them.
Gandhiji did more harm to India then good, so lets not go there. Subhash Chandra Bose, like Sardaar Vallabh Bhai Patel is but one of many celebrated warriors, and if he had links with the Nzi regime, then that was the political order of the day .. so what if he did? India had, and still has links with Russia.
It is because of a weak Gandhiji, that we have the India today riddled by Islamic terrorists wreaking havoc on our secular Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist, Jewish and Catholic/Christain land. Muslims are not Indians, and are unwanted guests living in India, all loyal to Pakistan. You live in lala land if you think otherwise.
You say:
“..unless we ….. action a holocaust against the muslims? can you confirm that’s what you want?”
Very melodramatic. You dont by any chance mean the same kind of halocaust being inflicted upon Hindus & Sikhs living in Pakistan & Bangladesh, do you? Its know as ethnic cleansing of Indian living in their Islamic motherlands, in case you are not aware .. is that not a holocaust in your opinion?
I can confirm to you that if it is right for them to inflict upon us such attrocities, then how is it wrong for us to reciprocate? Are you blind to what they are doing to Hindus in Kashmir, right now, in real time as we debate here?
I suggest that all Muslims living in India must voluntarily leave India to go and live in their neighbouring Islamic motherland, where they can practise their faith and of course “live in peace”. Indians dont want them there, just as they are not wanted here in the UK.
You say: “in my experience i can assure you that in britain at least most gujarati muslims are patriotic indian certainly when it comes to pakistan”
You are not only naive if you believe that, but Gullible too. They have just bombed Delhi and Amdawad, and you defend them.
Why do you consider, when you say “..your views of muslims are very chillingly similar to racist organisations like the bnp ..”
Are you saying therefore that the Muslim views of Jihad to convert all Hindus to Muslims by force are acceptable to you? Are you saying that for them to call all non-Muslims Kuffar who must be converted to Islam or killed is acceptable to you?
How you define your interpretation of the word “chilling” in comparison to the Muslim attrocities being inflicted on us today? Muslims living in India are not Indian my friend, they are unwanted Pakistanis & Bangladeshis living in our land, the enemy within as SIMI bomb India at will.
Why dont you go to the Mosque, and beg the Muslims to take the path of peace, instead of lecturing to us? We are fighting back now in self-defence of Bharat Mata. You know what Kamlesh, they would take your head off your shoulders if you dared.
September 18th, 2008 at 12:08 am
kamlesh
I see where you think we are calling for holocaust. This is not the case. In my posts, and others here, we understand that individuals are individuals.
But I think you are not seeing the point.
Try this question that tends to result in silence to many a christian and muslim: how do you know you are not a nazi? How does a railway man decide that cooperating with an oppressive regime, makes him a mass murderer?
Or perhaps: what would the Meccans say to your wife’s appeal for religious tolerance in Mecca? Why are the so called moderate muslims telling others to tolerate them but there is no real reform movement in islam to tolerate hindus etc in islamic states? Why are the muslim moderates on the news channels in the US not on the news channels in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan…
I am all for preaching peace. I am all for peace as being the first option. But preaching needs to be equal to both sides of an argument.
The ideological fact is that Hinduism teaches what you are asking for, islam and christianity teach the opposite. The infidel and heathen, to them, should be wiped out and disempowered. Does your muslim wife disagree with the koran when it says:
if you believe in only part of the Scripture, you will suffer in this life and go to hell in the next. 2:85
Allah has cursed them for their unbelief. 2:88
The curse of Allah is on disbelievers. 2:89
Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kil them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don’t kill them.) 2:191-2
Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89
“How can I sorrow for a people that rejected (truth)?”
Shu’eyb tells the Allah’s victims that they deserved to die for rejecting Islam. 7:93
…
I am all for openess and peace. The real problem is that the enemy is not.
hariaum
September 18th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
I tend to agree more with Navin than with Kamlesh.
Kamlesh, you are obviously a well meaning person but you are deluding yourself. Do you really believe this myth of the ‘moderate muslim? There is ONE koran, there is ONE surat, there are hadiths agreed on by ALL the muslim authorities. ALL these call for the extirpation of kuffar - anyone other than muslim, the setting up of the ummah - the global caliphate - by ANY means. Leave off reading your Hindu texts for a while; doubtless you are well versed in their message of tolerance and brotherhood by now. Read the books of your enemy; read the koran, the suras, the hadith. Read what is ACTUALLY said, rather than the banal platitudes of your muslim ‘friends’, it will scare you senseless. Read about the murderous thug, caravan raider, oath breaker and murderer , the child molester and psychopath; otherwise mohamed, who muslims regard as the perfect man.
As regards comparisons to so called ‘racist’ organisations, there is a saying: When you’re taking flak, it means you’re over the target.
Nor, oddly enough, do I have a damaged manhood, but I must say I wonder at a Hindu who so easily glosses over the centuries of muslim persecution.
September 18th, 2008 at 7:06 pm
Listen Kamlesh, u made ur choice and for that u r a DROHI and should be treated accordingly by the Hindu samaj, stop writing bs, so called patriotic “indian” muslims are the ones who marry into Malays and are becoming malay in Singapore, so called patriotic “indian” muslims use their religion in Malaysia to pass for bhumiputra by disowning Tamil and marrying into Malays, and then support discrimination against the Hindu Makkal (public).
Mahathir Muhammad’s grandfather was a Malayali Muslim, now Mahathir has become a Malay and was the one who raked up Malay Muslim fanaticism along with Bhoomiputra nonsense and called HINDRAF “terrorists”. This is “indian” muslim patriotism in action.
Go f*ck urself before lecturing us, funny that a loser whose wife ran away should talk about “damaged manhood”, maybe u shud look at ur own loser life first before throwing around psychobabble.
September 22nd, 2008 at 4:24 pm
Hi Harish,
Rehne de yaar .. dont get personal.
Keep it political and professional, albeit spirited. Theek?
I speak as an elder now, so pls. dont take offense at what I say.
Very well composed and presented Navin.
September 29th, 2008 at 7:11 pm
jai shri krishna.
dear oh dear, i will start by apologising for hurting any individuals feelings. with hindsight my posts appear to be firing up the haters even more but i don’t retract anything.
i guess opening up to people on this forum encourages “argumentum ad hominem”. i will try to respond to some of the comments above.
“Kamlesh is just a wanker who I hope experiences Islamic love personally when they do another round of bombings in UK” - i would rather have this love than your hate any day. who are they?
“Kamlesh is just an insulated moron who doesn’t go outside much.” - many thanks for the compliment. you appear to have sussed me out based on 2 posts. ever thought of working for RAW or alternatively in recruitment?
“I have to ask, then, how did not have to convert to Islam and what religion your children will be?” - a serious question and thanks for not insulting me keshav bhai. my wife is ismaili (followers of the aga khan). only 1 of her siblings has married into their faith. incidentally her sister is married to a jewish man. i have adopted her son from her previous marriage and we have agreed any future children will be brought up hindu but respecting all faiths.
“we have the India today riddled by Islamic terrorists wreaking havoc on our secular Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist, Jewish and Catholic/Christain land. Muslims are not Indians, and are unwanted guests living in India, all loyal to Pakistan.” - secular Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist, Jewish and Catholic/Christian land eh? that’s a bit of a mouthful! what about the jains and parsis?
there were indian muslim communities before indian sikhs and catholics. what if operation blue star (and co-operation from Pakistan) hadn’t stopped khalistan happening? where did the indian jews originate from?
“I can confirm to you that if it is right for them to inflict upon us such attrocities, then how is it wrong for us to reciprocate?” - who the hell said it was right for anyone to commit atrocities?! you immediately lose the spititual upper ground when you say that.
“We are fighting back now in self-defence of Bharat Mata.” the same bharat mata that is secular, sikh, jewish etc? at least be consistent.
“Or perhaps: what would the Meccans say to your wife’s appeal for religious tolerance in Mecca?” - navin bhai, you’re posts have been quite respectful so thanks but my wife is indian not meccan. maybe the hundreds of thousands of hindus who choose to work in saudi and the gulf can answer your question.
“I am all for openess and peace. The real problem is that the enemy is not.” - my dear navin, the enemy is in your mind. in india the lot of many muslims is with the “dalits and other backward classes”. generally they are impoverished so can easily be scapegoated. why do you choose to close your eyes to nagaland and n.e. india? how many terrorist atrocities were committed by hindus in the last couple of years? or is that politics?
“Go f*ck urself before lecturing us, funny that a loser whose wife ran away should talk about “damaged manhood”, maybe u shud look at ur own loser life first before throwing around psychobabble.” - i’m really proud you are my co-religionist! not.
“Nor, oddly enough, do I have a damaged manhood, but I must say I wonder at a Hindu who so easily glosses over the centuries of muslim persecution.” - atrocities were committed by afghans as they looted india but they (nor the mongols, persians or british) could subdue hinduism. why hasn’t hinduism been wiped out? the british used divide and conquer to facilitate hindu / muslim killing hindu / muslim. india’s history was never as simplistic as you want it to be.
i wandered onto this forum hoping to strengthen my religious understanding and improve myself as a hindu but if it’s all about extreme right-wing politics then i’ll leave you all to it.
on shaanti shaanti om
October 1st, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Hinduism incorporates and embraces the Jain faith, so where did such a Q come from?
Jains are part of the broader Hindu faith just as is The Swami Narayan and the Pusti Marg followers.
Dont confuse Parsis with Indians. The are Muslims, not Hindus.
So please dont go there and segregate the various faiths.
October 1st, 2008 at 6:47 pm
Yes, of course, the enemy is in my mind. There is no question that I have not reached enlightenment yet. Thus my finite mind grapples with truth, often mistakenly.
But then, I am not so sure that the enemy in the mind of the jew being sent to Auschwitz was the real problem. Nor that in the mind of Afghani women when being raped, nor that in the mind of the Hindu going to Saudi Arabia who is imprisoned for carrying an idol, nor that in the mind of Hindus being killed off in bangledesh, nor in the mind of Hindus being bombed in India by the Indian muhajadeen….
As a spirit, I leave all to Krishna.
As a man of the world, I must engage the samsaric reality. The reality is that all human beings are to be saluted - namaste. The reality is that there are ideas guide decisions that have ahimsic and himsic consequences. The reality is that if all ideologies are the same, there is no reason to belong to an ideology. The reality is that some ideologies condone hate, others try and stop it. The reality is that a man can take an ideology of hate and turn it to good (jihad becomes internal). But then, the reality is that if a machine makes mistakes 50% of the time and another makes the same mistake 10% of the time, the two machines are not equivalent. Those who want to avoid the mistake must reject the first machine. When a machine comes out with only 1% mistakes, the second machine can be rejected. The systemic error evidenced by the historic (and scriptural) data around the christo-islamic religions is overwhelming that these two in particular, will likely go on to make the same mistakes at high frequencies. To close one’s eyes to this is to miss history for ideology, to miss satya for maya.
The problem of Mecca is not a problem for meccans. It is a problem for the so called tolerance of muslims all over the world. If they demand tolerance ignoring their history from us, it is fair for us to demand tolerance from them. If the muslim can stand up and say: We muslims declare that islam is tolerant and demonstrate this by signing a petition that demands that the sacred heart of geographic islam, mecca, shall be as tolerant as Kachi to outside religions - that Hindu temples can be subsidized by our governments, that Hindu schools in the islamic nations shall be protected and subsidized, that Hindu pilgrims shall be subsidized b our sharia dollars…And that all religions shall be welcome in Mecca as a demonstration of our tolerance and the mercy of god. I don’t mean to personalize your wife’s beliefs - al persons are divine. But this is the real enemy of intolerance - that they should demand tolerance from us, but be free to oppress when they are in power. I am all for tolerance, but the enemy is not.
As a man I must confront the samsaric reality, Arjuna pick up your bow, Kali was intolerant of intolerance and ignorance. Respect all the faithful, but do not respect all faiths (do you really want to raise your children to respect the Aztec act of human sacrifice?); discriminate based on the universal principles of ahimsa, renunciation, and detachement. And in that discrimination find truth from untruth, find light from darkness, find immortal reality from death.
But then, as a spirit, I leave all to Krishna.
October 1st, 2008 at 8:03 pm
Do improve your understanding of Hinduism (and all truth seeking systems), do seek out alternative views, and be aghast by the intolerance amongst our own. But also keep the scales of discrimination open to being influenced by evidence of Tat Sat, not tat sat as I would like it to be. I think we are all trying just that.
Om! May Tat protect us both (the teacher and the taught).
May Tat cause us both to enjoy protection.
May we both exert to find out the true meaning of the scriptures.
May what we study become enlightening and fruitful.
May we never quarrel with each other.
Hariaum
October 1st, 2008 at 10:51 pm
listen kamlesh the feeling is mutual, i consider u a scumbag, infact i dont see osama types as the problem cuz they r doing what their “religion” tells them to but i do have a problem with backstabbing scum in the community that are ready to spread false history cuz their wife belongs to that religion or because they are too retarded to do any real reading.
“where did the indian jews originate from?”
why don’t u google wanker, then u would know.
“generally they are impoverished so can easily be scapegoated. why do you choose to close your eyes to nagaland and n.e. india? how many terrorist atrocities were committed by hindus in the last couple of years? or is that politics?”
what bs, so who impoverished them scumbag?
and for ur info most of the terrorists getting caught happen to be highly educated and wealthy, ever read about the profile of the 9/11 bombers?
what the hell does north east have anything to do with Hindus, they are demanding nagaland for christ not krishna you wanker.
maybe u can list all these alleged terrosim by Hindus done in the name of religion the way ur wifes co-religionists r bombing trains and buses in the name of islam.
“why hasn’t hinduism been wiped out? the british used divide and conquer to facilitate hindu / muslim killing hindu / muslim. india’s history was never as simplistic as you want it to be.”
bs, hinduism was wiped out from afghanistan, reduced to a tiny minority in pakistan, the same done in bangladesh, which world u live in moron?
also notice that he never dealt with the quotes from quran by navin, what do you have to say to those kamlesh (islamghulam would be a better name for u).
Explain this:
“By now Timur had captured 100,000 Hindus. As he prepared for battle against the Tughlaq army after crossing the Yamuna, his Amirs advised him �that on the great day of battle these 100,000 prisoners could not be left with the baggage, and that it would be entirely opposed to the rules of war to set these idolators and enemies of Islam at liberty�. Therefore, �no other course remained but that of making them all food for the sword�. Tuzk-i-Timûrî continues: �I proclaimed throughout the camp that every man who had infidel prisoners should put them to death, and whoever neglected to do so should himself be executed and his property given to the informer. When this order became known to the ghãzîs of Islam, they drew their swords and put their prisoners to death. One hundred thousand infidels, impious idolators, were on that day slain. Maulana Nasiruddin Umar, a counsellor and man of learning, who, in all his life, had never killed a sparrow, now, in execution of my order, slew with his sword fifteen idolatrous Hindus, who were his captives. ”
Please do enlighten us why if they were just “looting” they wer killing people in the name of religion and calling them “infidels”.
If u don’t have an answer to that then i suggest u shut up and stop replying.
“religious understanding” doesn’t just mean singing some bhajan while lying about Hindu history, if u don’t like the truth then go find some like minded morons and get circumcized.