Controversial Modi emerges victorious in Gujarat elections
The election results for Gujarat, the land of origin for over half of Britain’s Hindus, have been announced today, with the outcome of a very one-sided victory for the Bhratiya Janata Party (BJP) led by Chief Minister Narendra Modi.
Although it was expected for the Narendra Modi (who has been the Chief Minister for the last 7 years) to hang on to power for his third term, the extent of the victory was not predicted by both opinion surveys and exit polls.
December 27th, 2007 at 4:36 am
Please remove the word “Controversial”, does HV also think that he is controversial?
December 27th, 2007 at 4:57 am
While saying that a thousand were killed during the riots, it helps to mention that 180+ non-muslims were killed by police bullets. this shows that the administration was alert and active.
December 27th, 2007 at 11:27 am
The Victory of Modi shows that all the analysis of the Anglo-Indian journalists are all wrong. People of India do not consider Modi as a villain but a practical realistic politicians.
It is a sad fact that Muslims have partitioned India by demanding their seprate country Pakistan. In the process millions of Hindu-Sikh-Buddhists, who used to live in Pakistan and Bangladesh were killed and expelled.
We cannot change History. However, the strange thing is that Muslims after 1947 refused to go to their new country but stayed put in India.
Thus, it is possible to have your cake and eat it too. This is the abnormal situation that gave rise to extreme hostility between the Muslims and the non-Muslims. Muslims are now unwanted in India.
The right course of action is to have a systematic transfer of the Muslim to Pakistan and Bangladesh and rehabilitate all remaining non-Muslims from Pakistan and Bangladesh in India.
Unless that would be done, there will be communal riots here and there, terrorists attacks by the Muslims here and there and there will be no peace in India.
It is high time that the Secularists in India must think hard and do what is natural after a partition of a country: Exchange of Population.
Rather than thinking about that solution all secularists of India just blame the people, who just do not want Muslims to stay in India because of their sad experience. No amount of secularism can change that reality.
.
December 27th, 2007 at 7:28 pm
great news from Gujarat, we finally have a statesman who does not like to over indulge the muslims thus getting their votes, but a man who stands on his own to feet and prodly declares his Hindu heritage something alot of the other so called politicians should take note of!…and what is the nedd of the “controversial” in the main heading?
JAI HIND!
December 28th, 2007 at 2:48 pm
OK, i’ll let you in on a little secret, in why the humans in Gujarat voted for Modi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDPJ5dK1Lp4
Shame on the so called ‘media’
December 28th, 2007 at 3:56 pm
Great result, Modi is a great leader for Gujurat as proven with his economical strenghts and he stands up for Hindu’s so JAI HIND!
December 28th, 2007 at 5:20 pm
and what is the need of the “controversial” in the main heading?
agree!!
December 28th, 2007 at 7:09 pm
Critics + Admirers = Controversy
Luckily for him his admirers vastly outnumber his critics in Gujarat (and perhaps the rest of India too).
But would anyone term Tony Blair or Dubya Bush controversial despite what has gone on during their time in office?
I think its not too far fetched to suggest that Modi is a future Prime Minister of India. His popularity is all the more remarkable that his support (despite being from a supposedly ‘backward’ caste) cuts along caste lines, whereas most leaders in India have it based around their own caste community. Face it most Indian politicians have always looked a bit too ‘pindh’-like (nothing wrong with that but with India now going through rapid business growth it’s not an image that will sit well with the growing and powerful Indian middle class). Modi projects himself as the man for the middle class that people all over India are now aspiring to be. And this is what will make him successful.
But don’t get me wrong I still regard ALL politicians in India as corrupt.
December 28th, 2007 at 9:11 pm
A. Moron says:
“..Muslims are now unwanted in India. The right course of action is to have a systematic transfer of the Muslim to Pakistan and Bangladesh and rehabilitate all remaining non-Muslims from Pakistan and Bangladesh in India…”
Couldn’t agree with you more .. well said mate!
But, who will explain this to PM Manmohan Singh?
December 29th, 2007 at 1:20 am
Although the systematic transfer of all Muslims in India to Pakistan and non-Hindus from Pakistan/Bangladesh into India seems like a solution to many of the the problems facing the sub-continent, it isn’t going to happen. If it didn’t happen in 1947, (when it perhaps should have) it’s not going to happen now.
December 29th, 2007 at 11:09 am
Congratulations to Chief Minister Narendra Modi.
The fact that nearly all of India’s Muslims see themselves as Muslim first and Indian second does not bode well for India’s ethnic future but Squidgy Man is correct when he says …..
“If it didn’t happen in 1947, it’s not going to happen now.”
There are however, more than enough feel-good factors at work on seeing that excellent web link by Davendra at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDPJ5dK1Lp4
and on seeing the state of degradation which seems to be the norm for Pakistan (sic) and Bangladesh.
Much work needs to be done on securing the borders to those two countries to prevent illegal emigration into a prosperous India.
December 29th, 2007 at 3:07 pm
Squidgy Man says, and Satish agrees with:
“..If it didn’t happen in 1947, (when it perhaps should have) it’s not going to happen now..”
Isn’t it strange that, this is a continuous and a well planned program in reverse in Pakistan and Bangladesh even today? And that too with the full albeit tacit approval of both these governments, their respective NGO’s, and also their Human Rights organisations?
And yet, the wretched Islamic Communal Congress Party, headed by the Indian PM Manmohan Singh keeps beating the drums of secular India with disregard and total contempt for the Hindu, Sikh & Buddhist majority’s wishes - what a laugh that must be for Pakistan & Bangladesh!
I wonder if anyone caught the “slip” in the late Benezir’s speech where, when refering to their Islamic State status, she said “All Pakistanis are Muslims”, and therefore total disregard of the existance of Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists & Catholics living there?
And yet, here we are, sayaing “..it’s not going to happen now..”
I, too, unfortunately have to agree here with Squidgy Man.
Can it be made to happen, I wonder, as in Pakistan?
Wishful thinking on my part I guess, but at least I vent anger here.
December 29th, 2007 at 3:20 pm
“..Although the systematic transfer of all Muslims in India to Pakistan and non-Hindus from Pakistan/Bangladesh into India..”
A slip of tongue I take it when you say “NON-HINDUS” - Squidgy Man?
LOL.
December 29th, 2007 at 11:36 pm
Yup, sorry my bad that was a typo Pravin. Obviously I meant to say non-Muslims!
December 30th, 2007 at 3:25 pm
Now that Narendra Modi has suceeded in Gujarat, people of Bharat should now think of sending him to Delhi.
December 30th, 2007 at 9:23 pm
Narendra Modi is likely to face an up-hill struggle en-route Delhi, because Sonia Gandhi’s Communal Congress Party headed by PM Manmohan Singh under pretence of “India is a secular country” banner, will have all its various Muslim political allies with their Islamic agendas lined up alongside them and against the BJP. It is with their support she holds on to office.
These parties wield enormous political power vested in them by a membership entirely of Muslims living in India, and therefore are communal by its very nature. Democracy and tolerance having been allowed to go wildly out of control as these parties believe in Sharia.
And yet amazingly, there was a speech by one such Muslim leader Mr. Raja allied to the Congress, who said if the BJP and Modi enter Delhi, there will be communal clashes with the minorities - meaning Muslims of course - a politically correct word invented by Congress so as not to have to use the word “Muslims”. What he said I believe was a thinly weiled warning to his leader Sonia Gandhi and to the Indian government.
Very strange .. because its only the Muslims who riot and clash with Hindus.
NDTV news presenters did not have the strength to confront Mr. Raja, and simply ask if its not the Muslims in India who start these communal riots, and if not, why is it then that its only the Muslims who mount numerous attacks on Delhi Houses of Parliament, Temples, Rath Yatras, and the killing of several BJP politicians and activists?
It poses a question .. and one wonders if channels like NDTV are frightened that asking such questions for fear that they will invoke the wrath of Muslim anger against NDTV, who then are very likely to be attacked and bombed by terrorists.
Free press NDTV? .. a laughable notion where you are concerned in this respect! And yet, Indian politicians including Mr. Modi are not spared such questions from you - I wonder why?
But ya sure, I agree that Narendra Modi must prepare for Delhi - and perhaps also take the spirit of Sardar Vallabh Bhai Patel with him with the blessings of secular Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist Catholic and Jewish Indians.
December 31st, 2007 at 4:50 am
before sending muslims to pakistan first we should throw socalled seculars & liberals out of india as they are causing more harm.
December 31st, 2007 at 5:49 pm
Shame and dismal future for the subcontinent where the masses are getting more drugged with poison spewn by psuedo Hindus as bad as fraud perpetuated by Congress and creeping influence of fundamentalism. This will bring more internal destabilisation and insecurity.The hands of capitalism will be strengthened at the cost of the common man’s quality of life and nationalism.What agenda does Modi have for the people to bring them into the 21st century mainstream -nothing. If gullible Hindus think Modi can save them from any Islamic onslaught which is what he has been professing then people are dumb!Hindus are timid weak to ward off any concerted attack by Islamic fundamantalism, their leaders first to give in. See what happened in the Ram Mandir Attempt ! We havnt a mandir even now despite everything!
January 1st, 2008 at 5:43 pm
Namaste All
This must be the first time I have to say that the piece on Modi and Gujarat was not in good taste. Controversial Modi?
Controversial for whom? May be for the Congress, Muslims and some traitor, corrupt Hindus for whom Modi is an obsticle. He stands between them and a pot of gold, a high office? Not for majority Gujaratis or deshpremi, enlightened Hindus!
How can a nation transfer some 180 million people from one country to another. It will take 100 years and why Indian Muslims would like to leave the country when they know that it will be theirs in 40 to 60 years time?
The Indian Govt. can not even stop Bangladeshis from entering
Bengal and Assam where Muslim population in 1947, after the partition was just 2%. Today it is 37% and rising fast.
West Bengal is tipped to have a Muslim majority in just 20 years time, followed by Assam, kerala and so on.
If India was not divided in 1947, the akhand India would have some 35 to 40% Muslim popilation today, on the verge of becominh an Islamic nation.
Israel with just 15% or some 550,000 Arabs (Muslims) can not remove them, even though Isralies are ten times more patriotic that we, the Indians and technologically Israel is far advanced than India.
What India need is the mass conversion of the minority to Hinduism, not the mass migration which is practically impossible.
We need more politicians like Modi and even he does not propose mass migration. But he can tame the untamaible and bring peace and prosperity, that is if he is there long enough
to take India by storm.
Bhuto promised to tame Taliban and now she will have to do it from Heaven? But let us hope and pray for Modi.
Bhupendra
January 2nd, 2008 at 12:46 am
The article I would guess has been so phrased in order to provoke views from Indians of various different political thoughts and beliefs for discussion here.
I await release of an article I have posted here which, if and when released, presents other issues which could be worthy of thought.
January 3rd, 2008 at 4:27 pm
The Editor,
I note your edited version of my posting dated December 30th, 2007 at 9:23 pm.
LOL - Sorry if I had written in anger, and thanks for “softening” my tone.
January 4th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
Namaste All
Well Pravin, I would love to read your article, if possible without editing.
Whether I agree with your views or not, and on most part I do, I feel you put your views in a civilized and eligent manner, befitting our great cultural heritage.
That is what we Hindus should be proud of, our culture, our religion and our achievements on all fronts.
If you wish you can read my articles online at
www.indialink-online.com,
www.trafford.com/07-1313
and in Asian Voice at www.abplgroup.com
I write every week in many newspapers and magazines. I had your email but have misplaced it.
If you have mine, then please email to me.
Wishing every one a vary happy New Year.
Bhupendra
January 6th, 2008 at 4:55 pm
As regards people objecting to the word ‘controversial’ in the article title, I fail to understand their point. ‘Controversial’ means simply that which causes or is likely to cause controversy; ‘controversy’, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, means ‘debate or disagreement about a matter which arouses strongly contrasting opinions. Clearly, according to this definition, regardless of our own personal opinions of Modi, he certainly is extremely controversial, as opinions about him range from the adulation of his greatest supporters all the way to the bitter hatred of his worst enemies, and everything in between.
Incidentally, might I mention in passing that the onward march of Modi stands out in stark contrast to the fluctuating fortunes of the BJP nationally - an interesting situation.
January 6th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
Incidentally, one other point arising from this article - whether Gujarat is “the land of origin for over half of Britain’s Hindus” depends on whether or not Sikhs are to be counted as Hindus. If Sikhs are Hindus, then there are far more Punjabi Hindus in Britain than Gujarati - the only way that Gujaratis make up more than half of British Hindus is if Sikhs are excluded. This may seem like a minor technicality, but I personally feel that it is worth noting that a respectable vehicle of Hindu opinion (i.e. Hindu Voice) is evidently stating here as a matter of policy that it believes that Sikhs are not Hindus.
January 6th, 2008 at 9:41 pm
Maj Gen APS Chauhan says:
“This will bring more internal destabilisation and insecurity”
A famous poet once wrote:
Samundar mein tufaah hai .. (The seas are stromy)
Majdhaar mein naiya doole, to maaji paar lagaye .. (If a boat is teetering and in trouble mid-seas, the oarsman will bring it ashore safely)
Lekin agar maaji naiya duboie, to oose kaun bachaye .. (But, if the orasman is hellbent on sinking the boat, who then will save that boat and all therein)
Such can be the consequences of the catastrophe that could follow if the Indian Congress Governments’s current secular and communal domestic policy is not checked .. where Manmohan Singh Ji as our oarsman will not stand up to Sonia in rebellion, for she is hellbent in sinking India into a sea of turmoil and communal meltdown.
I too share, and shed tears of anguish along with the Maj. Gen.
However Major, please allow us some leeway on your thoughts when you say:
“The hands of capitalism will be strengthened at the cost of the common man’s quality of life and nationalism. What agenda does Modi have for the people to bring them into the 21st century ..”
Indians are adventurers, and being capitalist comes to us as second nature for life, and “paapi pet” (hunger) is the teacher of enterprise, and capitalist thinking comes naturally thereafter. Have faith in Modi .. he is a “Sant” .. and like all good Sants .. he is the strong quiet type and for sure, he does have an agenda.
Millions of Indian entrepreneurs and professionals, in India and all over the world (NRI’s), are all by and large capitalists, but most certainly not ungenerous in giving, for it is this spirit of the Indian capitalist that has dragged India, sometimes kicking and screaming, into the current economic power status that the world now begrudgingly salutes.
The very strength of capitalism therefore will be driver which will ultimately imporve the common man’s quality of life for which we all share your concern, and nationalism too as children educate, and compete both in India and internationally. We on here are living examples.
The millions of NRI’s are living proof of that legacy left to us by the spirit of our fathers who left India 80 to 100 years ago .. in search of prosperity .. in so doing, we have not forgotton Mother India.
One Modi on his own cannot save India .. but together, in quiet yet robust support of him, we can empower him to instigate changes politically, for India is the biggest democracy on earth, and that must be maintained with pride.
January 8th, 2008 at 11:59 am
Modisaheb is the closest thing to a maharajah of gujarat…albeit he is celibate and vegetarian…but like a cultured statesman indulges his hand in poetry…modi saheb ko abhinandan…c to unko delhi ka raj-mugat dene ka samay hein…shayas bhavishya mein hoga
January 10th, 2008 at 10:22 am
Looking at the stand Shri Mody has taken in the face of ‘dirty politics’ that Sonia Gandhi (a foreigner again) is playing, there should be Modis in every State of India. In UK Michael Portilo a learned Conservative, whose father came to this country from Spain some 70 years ago, could not come anywhere near leadership of Con. Party because he is a foreigener. In India an illitrate farmer’s daughter, a waitress from Cambridge, who couldn’t speak a word of English, from remote village in Italy has taken the leadership of Congress Party because she has managed to keep her stupid husband’s name as surname. It must be because of her colourless white skin that brainwashed Indians still love. The Gandhi dynasty (nothing to do with Mahatama Gandhi) has to be trashed in India before the next generation tries to take advantage. It shows how politicaly bankrupt Congress Party is. I think they must be intellectually bankrupt. Let us create and support more Modis in India.
January 17th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
This really is a very fine discussion and HINDU VOICE is a very fine website.
Congratulations to the moderators for making it so.
Bhupendra’s comments on January 1st, 2008 are horrifying close to the truth. India could do so much more to police its borders, ejecting illegal immigrants and eliminating the ‘silent invasion’ mentioned. This could even be a vote-winner for the politicians.
Pravin said on January 6th, 2008 that..
“The millions of NRI’s are living proof of that legacy left to us by the spirit of our fathers who left India 80 to 100 years ago .. in search of prosperity .. in so doing, we have not forgotton Mother India.”
I agree with his dialogue and would comment that my ancestors left India at about 1850 and emigrated to Guyana, South America.
We therefore left India about 160 years ago and I can assure you we even to this day have not forgotten Mother India.
January 21st, 2008 at 7:14 am
Satish,
All Hindus living in the world should be proud of people like you and your family. What you have said is how evry Hindu/Indian should feel about ‘Mother India.’ Historically India is mother of all Religions and cultures and there is no other Religion that can teach us about God, our Universe and human race. Just read below what Mark Twain wrote about India after visiting it:
“India is the cradle of human race, the birth of human speach, the mother of history, the grand mother of legend, and the great grand mother of tradition. Our most valuable and most instructive materials in the history of Man are treasured up in India.” No wonder Ravindranath Tagore could define India as, “Head held high and fearless”. So where are we going so wrong and why there is no unity among us? The answer is we did not bother to study our scriptures properly and fell for quick fix fomulas, the poojas and became victims of 19th cent.Macaulays/Curzons/Cunninghams schemes to destroy Hinduism in India. And their agents are still doing it right under our very noses.
January 22nd, 2008 at 12:23 am
Kumar what you say is all well and good, but right wing Hindu Nationalists need to come together I believe, as otherwise what you say in your last sentense will be fatally final for it will be the beginning of the end of the very existance of Hinduism in around 60 years otherwise in India.
January 23rd, 2008 at 8:21 am
As I see it the world now is divided into two camps of religions, Abrahamic and Vedic. Judaism, Christianity and Islam belong to the first and Hinduism, Jainism, Sikhism and Buddhism belong to the later camp.
Sanatan Vedic Dharma was the first ‘religion’ that man knew for thousands of years and as the authorship of the Vedas was unknown Hindus believed they must have come and handed down for the maintenance of the human race by God himself. Those who have studied and deciphered the Vedas (including the Western scholars) have concluded one has to be super human to write anything like that. For this very reason Hinduism is ‘mother of all religions.’
Later religions like Judaism, Christianity and Islam have their roots in Hinduism and one can trace them quite easily in their literature. These religions had to have Prophets for their creation that were already influenced and had lived by the tenets of the Vedas. These Prophets knew that their survival will always depend on the destruction of others’ faiths and religion, or individuals be destroyed for not following their doctrines.
Unfortunately the leaders of these Abrahamic religions for over two thousands years now have not realised that destruction Hinduism would mean destruction of ‘Dharma’ itself of ‘human race’, the God’s creation. The resulting tragedy would be they would be killing each other in the name of their own Gods. Hindus have to make sure they do not get destroyed in the crossfire.
This is why the people (Hindus) of Vedic camp must understand the differences and unite, not to destroy others, but to save human race and its ‘Dharma.’ And it can only be done by studying the Vedas and Geeta. I would ask the people of other faiths the same, lest we will all perish.
In this 21st century the Hindus, Buddhist, Jains and Sikhs will have to unite in the face of aggression shown for change by Prophetic religions. I have always admired and saluted Guru Govind Singh of the Sikhs who pointed out to the Hindus of their responsibility. But let us not forget the necessity of our unity is not for converting others but preventing our people of Vedic camp getting converted due to ignorance, poverty and misunderstood castes, hence my quotation of Mark Twain in my earlier response.
January 23rd, 2008 at 4:27 pm
“Vedas (including the Western scholars) have concluded one has to be super human to write anything like that. For this very reason Hinduism is ‘mother of all religions.’”
Ya right, care to show us all these western “scholars”?
One does not have to be “super human” to have written them, whatever the hell that means.
“Later religions like Judaism, Christianity and Islam have their roots in Hinduism and one can trace them quite easily in their literature. These religions had to have Prophets for their creation that were already influenced and had lived by the tenets of the Vedas.”
wtf?
If the “Prophets” already lived by the tenets of the Vedas then why are so many of their nonsensical “revelations” in such contradiction with the Vedas and where was the need to create new “religions”?
I think you been reading too much of that nutter PN Oak (now dead for good) to come up with such crackpot bs.
January 24th, 2008 at 12:41 am
Tut tut Kadimipuli Porumannana - a little finess please? .. LOL
I will reserve comment though, on Kumars thoughts .. tongue bleeding.
January 24th, 2008 at 9:18 am
Kadimipuli,
I would certainly love to reply to your comments if you let me know what is ‘wtf?’ and ‘bs’. I am not used to this kind of language. I do have a short list of Western Scholars, I know what ’super human’ means, I know how later relgions were invented and I know what calibre Mr Oak was. I only hope you have the inteligence to understand it all, unless of course you are another of those totally brainwashed by some whiteskinned Evangelist do gooders wandering around in India.
January 24th, 2008 at 7:06 pm
It is unfortunate that we feel the need to resort to personal accusations rather than merely tackling the issues raised. As a general comment, I’d like to point out that the fact that someone else may disagree with your own opinions does not make them Christian, Communist, brainwashed, or any of the other accusations thrown around in these fora. Like many others, it grates when the JNU/AMU scholars resort to petty insinuations (saffron brigade, right wing nationalist, etc.) rather than debate the points raised; it is unfortunate that we too are apparently guilty of the same intellectual poverty. Not only that, but at least they use such language for their opponents (i.e. us); if we are all Hindus here, each trying in our own way to better understand our Dharma, should we not be helping each other rather than belittling each other? How exactly does such behaviour promote any kind of Hindu unity?
I hope I do not speak out of turn, and I certainly do not wish to offend anyone, but it is sad enough to see such petty personal slander going on in any forum, let alone between those who ought to be supporting and strengthening each other in the spirit of Hindu brotherhood.
January 25th, 2008 at 12:32 am
Satya,
You say: “..resort to petty insinuations (saffron brigade, right wing nationalist, etc.) ..”
Please explain what you mean when you say “resort to petty insinuations” in relation to what I said ie. right wing nationalist.
I did not set out for this to read, or seen in the light of a petty insinuation for it is not.
January 25th, 2008 at 8:08 am
GOOD!
Now we will get somewhere. My research may not be as good or enough and of liking to many people, but calling any writer a nutter makes me think about the quality of the person who makes such accusations. Many people do not agree with Richard Dawkins but have they got right to call him a nutter? Mr Oak was a member of Subhash Bose’s army fighting for India’s freedom. He has written eight books on subjects all trying to unite Hindus by reminding them of goodness in their religion and rewriting Indian history concockted by the British. His writings have never been challenged but if they are working as thorns in the backs of some, God help them. Or can God help such nutters?
What is worrying me lately that there are thousands of ‘internatonal agents’ of faiths like Evangelism, Catholicism, Islam, Communism, aethism. etc wandering around villages in India taking advantage of their white skin teaching about their Gods to innocent and descent people while they themselves do not know who their God is. Their God is in the sky. We must stop ‘white skin’ worshipping and teach our poor people our religion more correctly and unite them by removing their ignorence instilled by Mogals and British. Otherwise soon we will be told that Hinduism is not a ‘religion’.
Anybody of average intelligence is capable of inventing ‘religion’. In recent time Karl Marks did it and called it Communism but failed because like Moses, Christ and Muhammad did not attach God and God’s revelation to it.
January 25th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
PN Oak was a nutter followed by crackpots like you, his etymological derivations were nonsense, claiming that “Islam” came from “Ishalayam” and Christianity from “Christneeti”.
He made a laughing stock out of Hindus, as for challenging his writings, people know that they are crackpot which is why they don’t bother.
Sita Ram Goel thought he was a joker, he also wrote a detailed chapter about the truth or falsity of Kaba being a Shiva temple:
http://voiceofdharma.com/books/htemples2/app2.htm
You can “worry” all you want about missionaries but as long as Hindus have nuts like you spreading ideas like the founders of Prophetic religions being influenced by Vedas we will have gullible Hindus converting.
And stop kissing sikh arse for a change, i think you haven’t been reading their feelings towards Hindus on hv itself.
January 26th, 2008 at 9:38 am
I have also found origins of some words in Oak’s books over stretched and too distantly connected and have disagreed with them. I don’t know how often you visit Museums in London, even they have admitted some 400 words in English language that have derived from Sanskrit words, words like cough (kuf), juggernaut (jagannathratha) etc. I find, to understand Oak’s wrtings one needs lateral thinking the reason being that last few generations are so conditioned by the way British have written and taught Indian history as set out by Lord Macaulay.
You mention word Kaba, like pronnunciation of J is Y in many European languages, K is G in mid-East and that is how Gabha (sanskrit) became Kaba. Does Kaba mean anything, but Gabha means ‘inner sanctum’ which is a main feacher of every Hindu temple. By the way it wasn’t Oak who found Kaba being a part of Hindu temple, it was British traveler Daniel who recorded seeing statues of Hindu deities carved in the inner walls of Kaba. Oak may be right as the stone of Shivlinga shape (a meteor from heaven) that visitors to Kaba used to kiss, from last year has disappeared. Why?
I agree with you, most Hindus do not know doctrines and dogmas of their religion, because there are non. But they live a Hindu life. So one cannot compare with Abrahamic religons. One survey in UK showed 80% population did not know Bible although they celebrated Xmas.
If you read history of all the religions, will find only religion known to humans was Vedic in one form or the other which included worship of Sun, Fire and Water that Abrahamic prophets also performed.
All the Hindu saints Buddha, Mahavir, Nanak have said good things and if one don’t appreciate them, I would say the person is not Indian.
January 26th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
Pravin, that comment was not directed at you - I understand fully the sense in which you intended the phrase, and have no problem with it in that sense. However, the same phrase is often used by ‘mainstream’ academics as an insult that automatically, in and of itself, discredits any individual’s work in the eyes of the academic world, and thereby circumvents the academic duty of responding to the actual points raised.
A noteable example is that as soon as Sir V S Naipaul came out in support of the Ramjanmabhoomi mandir, he was immediately dismissed as a ‘right wing Hindu nationalist’ by many in the academic, journalistic and political worlds. When it was pointed out that he has made a lifetime’s career of writing extremely high quality fiction and non-fiction, the accusation was modified to claim that he had been ‘brainwashed’ by the ‘right wing Hindu nationalist’ RSS.
Either way, rather than having to debate the actual issues that Sir Vidia had raised in his comments, anything he had said was assumed to be null and void purely on the basis that they were ‘right wing Hindu nationalist’ ideas. My point, therefore, was not against the actual insults used, but the way in which such things are used - such insults and insinuations are used commonly (as we see above also, which prompted my comment) as a convenient (but ultimately quite damaging) way of avoiding mature, productive discussion of the issues.
January 26th, 2008 at 5:45 pm
kumar you’re a nuter. im glad pn oak died and i hope wastes of oxygen like you follow your leader.
January 26th, 2008 at 5:53 pm
One doesn’t need to visit “museums” to know that English has many words from Indian languages (mainly because of British Raj), for your info here are some more:
Jungle = Jangal (Hindi and other North languages)
Coolie = Kooli (Tamizh/Telugu)
Ganja = Ganja ( Hindi, through the Caribbean where Indians went)
curry = kari (Tamizh)
pariah = Paraiyan (Tamizh)
Mongoose = Mungeesa (Telugu)
Prize = Parisu (Tamizh)
There are many more, if you get some dictionaries and have common sense and decent knowledge of Sanskrit and South Indian languages you can figure out many.
On the other hand what Oak proposes are improbable etymologies that make no sense whatsoever.
Obviously in your desire to prove Kaba as a Shiva temple you have given up any pretense of logic, the Sanskrit word is “Garbha” not “Gabha” and it is used for womb/foetus/pregnancy etc. To say inner sanctum you don’t say “Gabha” but say “Garbha Griha”.
The “Abrahamic prophets” is too broad a word and the the 3 main one’s (Moses, Jesus and Muhammad) did not perform any such worship (I included Jesus in there because even though to xtians he is “God”, to Muslims he is a “Prophet”). Muhammad may have in his younger days due to his Arabic Pagan upbringing but once he deluded himself into thinking he was God’s messenger he forbid any worship except to Allah, Moses had his brother Aaron convince all the Israelites who wanted to worship the Golden Calf come out in the open only yo be massacred later (repeated in modern times by Mao in his “let a 100 thoughts bloom” project) and the Bible makes no mention of the deluded Jesus worshipping sun, fire or water.
January 28th, 2008 at 12:01 pm
Hello,
As I have said before I am not an ardent deciple of P N Oak and have also found certain things in his writings unacceptable. But have also found his research invaluable for younger generations. Like Richard Dawkin’s findings some things will require almost lateral thinking which most of us are incapable of. Call Dawkins a nutter, he will shred you to pieces. If Oak’s findings were so objectionable and wrong why he was not challenged or his books banned or no ‘fatwa’ was issued aginst his when he was alive?
January 29th, 2008 at 8:09 am
Kadimipuli,
I am not a linguist and admit am not that well versed in Sanskrit. But I find many words in English and other languages have been changed to suit accents of various tribes and communities. It may be because all languages except Sanskrit are not phoenetical. E.g. Muhammad is spelt as Mohammad, Mohamad, Mahamad, Memet, etc. Also in Europe J is pronounced as Y and in South G as K and V as B. The British rulers also changed the names of the places to suit their accents, e.g. Aravasthan became Arabastan, Arabia.
I am not hell bent on proving that Kaba is Shiva’s temple. It was Mr Oak who cited information in British traveller Daniel’s notes that he saw many statues of Hindu deities carved in the inner faces of the walls of the Kaba. Also a stone of Shivalinga shape which was kissed by Muslims, last two years has all of a sudden disappeared. Why? This meteor historically been presented as a gift to Muhammad from heaven. Also can any meteor fall on Earth all smooth and sculptured? I don’t know Mr Oak may be right.
Word Gabha (inner sanctum) is an architectural feature in the planning of any Hindu temple. In this chamber the statues of the deities or Shivalinga are kept and are restricted to officiating priests only. The word has nothing to do with Garbha Griha.
Of course I have no proof that Abrahamic Prophets including Jesus worshipped the Sun, Fire and Water. But they lived in the period when communities around them did worship according to Vedic traditions. It is also argued that Jesus never existed and that shroud in Turin is a fraud. Now it is being propagated that Jesus visited India. If he did, why India instead of more nearby countries? And while there must have learnt a few tricks of worship and miracles. Even some Bishops have agreed that Bible is full of stories and I would say let us not be so gullible to accept them.
January 29th, 2008 at 10:26 pm
“If Oak’s findings were so objectionable and wrong why he was not challenged or his books banned or no ‘fatwa’ was issued aginst his when he was alive?”
By Kumar’s logic, since the Protocols of Zion or Hitler’s theories in Mein Kempf are not refuted much (still widely used in Islamic publications), that must make them the greatest publications to grace our human history.
PN Oak’s crap ain’t refuted precisely because it’s as ludicrous as the above publications, but still some people have taken up that task and if you google you will find refutations (some by Muslims about his fancicul theories about Islan and Kaba), in the link I gave Goel discussed his crackpot theory of Kaba being a Shiva mandir listing primary sources and he also said:
“Some years ago I read an article proposing that the Ka�ba was a �iva temple before it was converted into a mosque by Prophet Muhammad. The article cited a long hymn in Arabic addressed to Mahãdeva who, according to the article, was the presiding deity of the Ka�ba. The hymn, it was stated, had been composed in the reign of Vikramãditya of Ujjain in the first century BC.
A friend who got interested tried to get the hymn traced to the extant collection of pre-Islamic Arab poetry. He approached several libraries abroad but drew a blank. He as well as I then dismissed the proposition as the product of that school of Hindu historians according to whom every building everywhere in the world was a Hindu monument at one time.
http://voiceofdharma.com/books/htemples2/app2.htm ”
Who do you think cited that “hymn”, none other than Oak and we can see that Goel didn’t even find it.
People who build up history on untruths do more harm than good in the end and Dawkins is a nutter with his absurd statements (eg: Parents teaching kids their religion = child abuse).
January 30th, 2008 at 6:59 am
Guys leave Kumar alone.
This is why Hindus are the laughing stock of the world. Hindus are man enough to rant and rage at other Hindus for having a different view/belief in a Hindu MB but want even squeek in a mainstream anti-Hindu MB like BBC Asian Network/Easter Religions.
You guys are acting like the RSS clowns who harass Hindu shopkeepers and teenagers on valentines but are too meek and submissive to muslims and christians.
If you guys believe that Hindus should be united then you’d better learn to accept other peoples views/beliefs.
BTW I’ve not read PN Oaks books but belief that there was a worldwide Hindu/Vedic culture in the past. If that makes me a crackpot I don’t care as it’s my belief.
January 31st, 2008 at 8:21 am
I would repeat what I have said. Please let me know if any one had raised objection to Oak’s findings. Many did to Salman Rushdi’s findings.
Mein Kempf was about races. Oak’s wrtings are his own findings thru various sources and mostly they are physical as existing even today and not just theories. The only way to find out the truth about Kaba would be to ask the Kaba authorities to remove the black shroud and show the world what is inside. Will that ever happen? It is interesting all Abrahamic religons have some thing to hide. Because, to me, they are all man made. Truth hurts but is it not better to lead a truthfull life? By the way I am not intrested in Shivalinga in particular.
About buildings everywhere being Hindu monuments: Only thing I can say is Architecture has always been about peoples’ imaginations, beliefs, intelectual capacity developed thru traditions, historical background, sciences like mathematics, materials available, etc. And because of the Vedas, Hindus knew lot more than the religions that followed later. This is why all the Abrahamic religions have their roots in Hinduism. Therefore their way of thinking must have been extension of Hindu thinking.
Dawkin’s statement is about child taking birth as a ‘free man’ without external influences or conditioning. But that freedom gets lost or abused by its parents teachings about God and religion they aquired from their own life. Logically it is true. As a Hindu I can accept it as far as ‘external influences’ are concerned, but Dawkins did not think of child’s ‘internal influences’ due to child’s experiences from his previous births, reincarnations. I wouldn’t call him a crackpot, it is just that he hasn’t found an answer to why two children born to the same parents are different with different aptitudes and inclinations.
February 14th, 2008 at 7:28 pm
Namaste,
Here is a beautiful site, with lot many interesting pictures. Enjoy the beautiful Radha-Krishna images.
www dot stephen-knapp dot com/
Browse through articles like:
Vedic Culture is the Parent of Humanity
Proof of Vedic Culture’s Global Existence
And don’t forget the most informative Hindu site.
www dot hinduwisdom dot info/index_new dot htm
Bharat
====
February 21st, 2008 at 9:06 pm
well i gone through complete web page and i found pretty good..
but one thing stucking my mind and that is …
is hindu or my sanatan dharma based on Narendra Modi..?????
please dont think my this comment is biased but again we are forcing our liberal religion in fanatic portion…
jay hind jay bharat…
god bless you all…
Om namah shivay
March 19th, 2008 at 7:59 am
Many have claimed that Hindu religion has become a laughing stock. Funnily it is only some Hindus who are saying it. My long association with learned British has surprised me how respectful they are of Hindu religion. One English professional after reading Upanishad questioned, with such rich literature why I chose to come to country like Britain. Only answer I could give, as a joke, that I was told (for two hundred years) the roads of Britain were paved with gold.
Falt lies with Hindus themselves. We have been conditioned by the British written history so much that we do not know the true history. As I have said before Hindus will need to do some lateral thinking and develop inquisitiveness for and sometimes insist on true history. And beware of those British so called ‘do gooders’ and free loaders wandering around in India who are impressing our dalits and poor villagers with cleand white dresses and white skin. My advice to youngsters is read our scriptures, it will make you proud as there are no so devine a scriptures like Hindu scriptures in other religions. Simple reason being their God is in the sky. No wonder they are still fighting to prove existance of it.
May 9th, 2008 at 7:48 pm
I think it is about time Hindus all over the world start teaching their children that other religions do not know who their God is. The main reason being there is no definition of God in their scriptures or holy books. In Hindu scriptures God is referred as Paramatma (Supreme Soul) and is clearly defined as ’spirit’ and like other religions not as a person living in Heaven or paradise wherever that may be. With this clearly understood I am sure Hindu children will be able to deal with other religions more confidently and help to build their own lives with purpose.
May 11th, 2008 at 7:07 am
Pralahad,
In Jan. you wrote or almost appealed the participants in this topic, ‘Guys leave Kumar alone’. Looks they have taken you too seriously. For me it gets too lonely. So my appeal to you all will be, ‘please do comment on my writings’. I am man enough to take any criticism.