Pakistan on the brink
In a terrible month for Pakistan, the country has seen both devastating terrorist attacks as well as the imposition of ‘emergency rule’ by its army chief turned dictator turned president, General Pervez Musharraf (right).
The number of terrorist attacks on Pakistani soil has greatly increased in the past year, in a country deeply divided by violence and hostility between different ethic and ideological factions: Sunni versus Shia, Baluchi separatism, Sindhi nationalism, militant Islamist versus westernized modernists, democrats versus supporters of military rule. All the conflicts appear to be coming to a head at once…
November 9th, 2007 at 9:20 am
At the very outset there should never have been a “Pakistan”. It was and will always be a part of India. Today if given a chance “Pakis” would rather live in India. If this be the reason why should there be a “Pakistan”? Pakistan came into existence with no soul and no heart. Today its largest cities (Lahore and Karachi) are realing in pain because it lost it’s ethical moral element namely the Sikh and Hindu business sector who were driven out or killed in 1947.So I say to you all Pakis : you have a choice : reclaim your right to dignity and humanity by returning to India (what rightfully belongs to India) or forever dwell in the dark alleyways to perpetual hell.
Jay Hind!!!
November 10th, 2007 at 11:04 am
I believe India should not relinquish its long term claim for Pakistan and Bangladesh to be part of India, in the same way as China has kept a claim on Taiwan. But of course any actual move to reunite is at least decades away. Right now those countries are quagmires.
November 10th, 2007 at 8:13 pm
Sir, The idea of religion based Pakistan was seriously flawed and the result is for all to see. More than half of its life it has been ruled by the military dictators, punctuated by period of aborted civilian rules. This pattern will continue for the remaining years of its existence Its anomisity with India over Kashmir, its pan Islamic ambitions, its search for stragic depth within Afghanistan. Its participation in the America led Jihad against the Soviets in Afghanistan, Its creation of Taliban as a religious force and to cap it all its nuclear capability. All of these have made it a very dangerous country.
Its pretence to be an American ally against Islamic terror Post 9/11 and its hare and hound policy has begun to frustrate America whose $11 billion aid is keeping it going. but without any tangible progress against Islamic terror.
It is teetering on the brink but is not yet a failed state. and the world especially India should watch developments in its neighbourhood very carefully indeed. Devinder Thakur .
November 11th, 2007 at 7:39 am
When it was said repeatedly that Muslims cannot remain with Hindus so they want a separate land for them.Islam cannot tolerate Hindus so they want separate Pakistan. These evil slogans and thoughts were shouted by Muslim Legue and Jinnah and Pak supporters before 1947, my father had told our family that Islam and Pakistan will be ruined. And today I am watching his prophecy comming true trickling drop by drop.He also said that India will be once again ONE under hindu rule.
Now all muslims of Pakistan and Bangladesh are sons/daughters of Hindus but the element of humanism/democracy/secularism in them has been snatched by Islam,Koran,Hadiths and Jihad.
November 12th, 2007 at 1:52 pm
Contarary to Steves thoughts, the creation of Pakistan & Bangladesh was necessary as otherwise India would have been a continuous sea of bloodshed and plunder as Muslims kill Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Catholics & Jews as they cleanse India to achieve an Islamic State of India.
“Returning to India” would further swell the Muslim population in India, and civil war would be an inevitable consequence therefore.
So, let us not even go there.
India has no claim over Pakistan or Bangladesh, Dangerous. Harbouring any such thoughts is incorrect and offensive to Pakistanis.
Pakistan is, and must continue to remain a Military controlled dictatorship and “pretend democratic” purely to satisfy the Americans and British Governments, and therefore continue to “milk” the cow’s for billions in aid.
If Pakistan’s way of military rule is disrupted as was in Iraq, that then would be the second biggest mistake in history that the West would make after the invasion of Iraq for it was Saddam Hussain who held that country, and the volatility of his Muslim countrymen together.
Iran now is a different scenario in comparison to Pakistan where bombing Iran may be the only solution to stop their nuclear ambition .. that option has not been ruled out by the Americans or by the EU.
Pakistan on the other hand I feel must be left alone, the very vocal Americans and British leaders should back off while Musharaf sorts out his country’s problems in the Muslim way.
Benazir Bhutto delebrately adds fuel to fire by playing the democracy card, which she full well knows goes against the non-negotiable preachings of Sharia, and Pakistan for that reason can never achieve full democracy until it remains an Islamic State. Benazir is a dictator at heart.
However distasteful this may appear to people who dont like Musharaf, he is in my opinion the best leader that Pakistan has had in decades. Deposing him will be a gross misjudgement by the Pakistani electorate, because they will then play smack in the hands of the American and Birtish leaders who now feel that Musharaf is past his “sell-by” date.
The only difference being that they deposed Saddam by force, and they will dipose Musharaf by backing Benazir to do their dirty work … and history will repeat itself for it is precisely this philosophy that the Biritish administration adopted by bringing Idi Amin to power in Uganda - its grave consequences live on in our memories today.
November 12th, 2007 at 6:15 pm
Mere afterthoughts, having read the article again in more detail:
“..Although no arrests have been made in connection with the attacks, it has been suggested that pro-military factions within Pakistan’s intelligence agencies planned the attack..
This is doubtful although possible. Doubtful because if Pakistani intelligence wanted Benazir dead, she would not have survived the attack. Pakistani intelligence is amongst the most efficient in the world….unless of course they wanted to put the fear of Musharaf into Benazir .. but that is a farfetched theory. Is it in Pakistan’s interests to make any arrests? I doubt it.
“..Growing threat of violence from extremists in the country led General Pervez Musharaff to impose military rule, with a view to regain full control of the situation..”
Surely this is normal in a military dictatorship, is it not? It would never happen in a real democracy where the military is under civilian parlimentary control.
“..However, the stability (or otherwise) of Pakistan is a matter of paramount importance to the world in general, and India in particular…”
I look at this with a different viewpoint. Pakistan has never been solidly stable ever and the world, India especially, is used to dealing with an unstable Pakistan. An unstable Pakistan is preferable to the world. A stable Pakistan is more dangerous to world peace than is an unstable Pakistan because of its volatile Islamic State status which directly conflict with democracy, leaving Pakistan in a confused state of “hodge-podge” wannabe democracy which it does not want to be. The extreme Mullas will never rest as was the case in Iran after the Shah.
“..Pakistan is an extremely important country in many ways….it is actually home to one of the largest populations, and has one of the strongest armed forces..”
There are more Pakistanis (Muslims) living in India then there are in Pakistan. The strength of its military is sustained only by Biritish and American aid to Pakistan, and near “free gifts” of war planes given to Pakistan by the Americans much to India’s disgust. Remove this aid, and the Pakistani military will crumble. Its a dirty game, Musharaf knows it, but alas, there is no escape.
“..Furthermore, it is one of the only countries which possess nuclear weapons..”
This can be neutralised with reasonable ease given the nod, and the threat ended .. doable, but the Americans and the Biritish prefer to leave Pakistan be as a nuclear power because it seems to suit them .. for various political reasons.
Remember that the Americans sent in the navy and their air-craft carriers armed to the teeth to aid Pakistan and attack India if need be during the “face-off” between India and Pakistan not too long ago.
November 13th, 2007 at 9:46 pm
I would like to see democracy in the middle east. (I would also like to see greater democracy in the developed world). I certainly would not like to see either Pakistan or Bangladesh back in India.
I think Pakistan would probably be more stable as three or more distinct nations with a possible federal military. Perhaps the history of Pakistan is just that. There is no nation but for the military. There is no common ethic other than attacking India. There is no common culture. But the hope of democracy is that diverse cultures and ethics can live side by side through a respect of diversity itself. If Pakistan can learn this, then so can the rest of the islamic world.
For India, it seems a far more important time to focus on training the minorities there to think of India, democracy, and diversity as values onto themselves. With this as a base, perhaps they will turn away from monothinking, and eventually turn towards the supreme. That would guarantee India peace and be a model for the whole world.
hariaum
November 14th, 2007 at 6:22 pm
Navin
You make good points however, it is the very Muslim “minority” in India to whom I believe you refer when you say:
“..it seems a far more important time to focus on training the minorities there to think of India, democracy, and diversity as values onto themselves..”
A most desirable although an optimistic overview, as you will (rather then may) find that the Muslims in India would much rather train us Indians in their ways, rather then the reverse which you suggest. Muslims in India, and indeed worldwide find thoughts of this nature absolutely abhorrent and would put it down, without fail, to ignorance of those who would so think, ie. about “training” them.
Iqbal Sacranie, Banglawala, Lord Ahmad and the mullas worldwide would for sure smile, and disagree with any such suggestion.
Democracy and Islam I am afraid is a lost cause … I feel somewhat sorry for Mr. Bush and Mr. Brown for even harbouring such a fantacy as to want to try to bring democracy to Islamic countries, for a fantacy it is.
There can be no peace in India as you and I would both hope and wish for, just as there can be no peace in the UK, France, Denmark, Sweden, USA etc. as, for what you say to become reality would require Muslims to intigrate.
That in itself would mean a change from their Islamic dress code to a more acceptable western dress code in the host country they have chosen to live in, at least for the duration of their day to day working lives, a simple change signaling their willingness to want to intigrate, of which they are not only incapable, but unwilling.
How then, for example, can India pursuade its Muslims to renounce their demands to want to live under Sharia there, as too is their wish to so do in the UK?
I actually worry for Pakistan and its stability with the intervention now of Benazir Bhuto and the support for her by Bush & Brown - she is no believer in democracy either.
November 15th, 2007 at 8:20 pm
The clothes I’m not worried about. I’ld like to see the muslims speaking in Hindi say that there is no Brahman but Brahman, or in English there is no god but god, or in arabic there is no allah but allah. If they were to begin with that, a point of their own religion; there is hope If they speak hindi and say there is no allah but allah; they are indeed lost to ethnic monothink. If they speak in hindi and say salutation to allah, as opposed to salutation of brahman, they can not truely even adopt their own religion. Rationalization is their true belief structure and dialogue is meaningless.
But hopeful and optimistic I must be - from perfection comes perefection…
hariaum
November 16th, 2007 at 1:14 am
Pravin is absolutely correct about many points:
Creating Pakistan & Bangladesh was necessary, people should stop this “Returning to India” Fantasy completely. It’s the British that created INDIA, a word that ancient South-Asians never used for themselves. Today’s India (independent)should stop living under dreams & shadows of the former British-India.
And Musharaf is the best thing to happen to Pakistan for while, he happens to be the only fit leader to push Pakistan towards a stable future, for he’s in-between the two Extremes in Pakistan. He is smart enough to know that western-style Democracy is pointless in his country, & he fights against the dangerous Fundamentalism that will destroy the nation itself. Yet Benazir will do anything to just get into political power again, but onces in power the stability of that country will falls with her.
The only thing I disagree with is this opinion that “Democracy and Islam is a lost cause,” I think the more correct wording would be that mixing Western Democracy(from USA & Europe) within Islamic countries is pointless. But Democracy itself can take many-different forms, if a military presence is needed to provide order & safety in the country, then that can be very beneficial. And it can easily become Democracy if the people get their opinions heard & get some major problems get answered with the help of the military governances.
As for America with her World Empire, cultural imperialism, White Man’s Burden, globalization, economic exploitation, foreign military policing, neo-cons, & gun/army/violence mentality, they shouldn’t be the ones giving guidance towards the rest of World. These freedom loving hypocrites still treat Indigenous peoples and African-American as 2nd class others(holding back in helping them completely gain full-freedom & power). And UK only uses USA to balance out the power of an untied continental Europe, so they(UK) wouldn’t get completely sucked into the whims of the EU.
November 16th, 2007 at 12:40 pm
LOL - To coin a phrase in good humour Navin, I think the words in reply to your comment, well taken, is:
“Insha Allah”
as the Muslims would say - one of the nicer words in their daily vocabulary.
November 17th, 2007 at 12:58 pm
Chandi,
Your thoughts in the last 2 paras of your comment are far reaching, and debating that here would deviate from the centre point of discussion ie. Musharaff’s Pakistan on the brink.
For example, if you read Navin’s comment posted on 13th. Nov., you will find his thoughts are conterary to yours in how he sees democracy as against how you envisage it be when he says:
“..(I would also like to see greater democracy in the developed world)..”
November 19th, 2007 at 5:45 pm
From what i have been told around where i study and all. And looking back in history….. i think History will repeat itself again. Adolf Hitler and Musharraf seem to have a lot in common. The call of emergency… the army on the streets, the greed for power…. Not a matter of time when History repeats itself, lets just say I hope India also reconize this trend like i did, and quietly puts up more guard on the borders of India, for India’s safety.
November 20th, 2007 at 8:40 pm
To be honest Democracy doesn’t work with Pakistan. They’ve been idependent as long as India has. Look at the development India is making compared to the shambles that is pakistan. This whole episode just speaks volumes of why Kashmir should remain with India.
November 24th, 2007 at 9:27 am
Who would have imagined about the Berlin Wall coming down for the betterment of the children of the same land. Only time will tell. After all through time immemorial each and every invader became the conquered ones. Although 900 odd years may seem too long, it is only a very short time for the scriptures of this sacred land whose geography lies in the Vedas. Most certainly it is taking longer but eventually one cannot draw lines on maps in order to determine the destiny of the products of the soil, be they humans or otherwise. Patience is a great virtue.
November 24th, 2007 at 12:43 pm
All the nostalgic types waiting for reunfication haven’t thought about how they will manage a 35% Muslim population when they can’t even manage a 13% one in India.
Usually they are the one’s who have 2 kids & do family planning (biggest reason for Muslim population increase), so less said the better.
November 24th, 2007 at 2:12 pm
I wish I could share your optimism Dharam .. yes patience is indeed a great virtue … perhaps the Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists & Christians are patient, a patience such that we almost hope against hope that the problem will go away, but it will not, and they stalk people of other faiths, with the deadly patience of an intent absolute!
Ever thought of that?
November 24th, 2007 at 7:56 pm
Kadimipuli Porumannana,
Did you say 13% Muslim popultion India?
In reality, its more nearer 22%.
The congress government give “seasonally adjusted” figures where this problem is concerned, for obvious political reasons - it suits the political season to “make a mistake” in such matters.
December 1st, 2007 at 1:42 pm
Does anyone realise, the number of Muslims that are populated in India, is veryy veryy disturbing… India’s supposed to populate more Hindu’s than anyone… there is another problem… We Hindu’s, in India, give them Muslims sooo much, we don’t even think of ourselves… They are still banging on about bhai bhai!… brothers don’t kill eachother, and make laws that if you live in their country, you have to live on the streets, as you cannot be a Neighbour to a Muslim.
When is the Hindu Population gonna wake up?? i await that day!
December 3rd, 2007 at 3:56 pm
Don’t wait. Publish - become a writer and publicize the slaughter of hindus by muslims. Educate - become a teacher and teach hindus and non-hindus about action and satya-graha (war with justice and truth). Heal - become a doctor and fund agencies desparately seeking money for their activism. Legislate - become a lawyer committed to international rights…
It is in Karma that enlightenment lies.
As a child one’s karma is centered on learning. This is not an abstract but an empowerment so that you can move on to the next stage. As an adult you learn humility and true depth of knowing. As an elder you pass the ancestral debt and become more free with real knowledge. As a sanyasin you transcend it all. At each stage your active involvement (not waiting) is what is needed. At each stage you are an activist. We forget that the miracle is the reality of creation. We forget that by living our daily lives we participate in a tremendous awesome dance. (We also forget that that dance requires activism as tamas starts bearing down on us as fat - literally and figuratively.)
Hariaum
hariaum
December 8th, 2007 at 12:19 pm
You appear to write in anger Navin, in offering advice to Sejal and her comments.
Some of us on here surely must despair at your thoughts, for you are either a Muslim with deep knowledge of Hinduism, or you are a man of such peace so as to match the preachings of the bygone era of Gandhi Ji - there is no time for what you advocate above, and I do wonder if your thoughts are in the minoirity.
What you say in essence was perhaps practical in the centuries past, but not today when those you sympathise for and so strongly appear to want to defend and protect, are those same people plotting against kuffar Hindus and our forefathers India.
Satya-graha is a waste to time and was of the Gandhi era. Gandhi Ji has long departed. Let his memories now rest in peace.
The Indians of today must match their thoughts and indeed any following actions, such as to equalise against those who will attack us from within the very boundaries of our holy and cultural motherland of India.
Take the initiative back, as it is necessary sometimes to fight fire with fire. The ensuing damage, political, economical and international, will be short term.
Indians can cope, absorb, repair and regroup from any such damage, but will have succeeded in bringing back order, and indeed purity, to what perhaps should become a Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist and Catholic secular land with a Hindu constitution.
December 14th, 2007 at 5:38 pm
I find no anger upon Sejal in her most recent comments. Her passion is clearly a good thing and her desire to help India is clearly a good thing. I reiterate only what the ashramas of life have been since time immemorial. If you believe hinduism is served by ignoring the ashramas, then I’m not sure which hinduism you are defending.
If you think simply, Gandhian era is certainly over. But if you think better about satyagraha and then deride it, are you perhaps supporting astayagraha? A struggle for untruth? A war without justice?
If you believe guns and nukes will further humanity, then you are a part of history that has tried these means for thousands of years. It has failed. It makes evil doers succeed - the christoislamic churches - temporarily. For then they collapse within themselves as the human spirit rises.
Now welcome to the power of the information age. The christo-islamists, and some of the sikhs writing on this site, have learned to ignore reasonable discussion and can only spout nonsensical ethnocetric regurgitated ideas. By blocking down the information that enters their sphere of knowledge they propagate ignorance and asatya. It is here that the problem of the modern world lies: control the information and you control action. If a chritso-islamists never reads the gita with an open soul, their soul is bound to monothinking. If a christo-islamists reads the gita with a inkling of an open soul, they will realize that it is the most profound spiritual teaching ever written even if seen secularly.
The war for humanity today lies in the information technology. Guns, bacterial warfare, and steel (to coin a phrase) are still important tactical instruments but victory is not achieved by these agents. Whenever an enemy is defeated two arise: their children and your own children that disdain your inhumanity. Whenever peace is brought about it is by treaty, agreement, consensus, open discussion - ahimsa. Then your own children will grow and say my parents were greater than the others. If the human mind is not informed, it acts in greater avidya and thus leads to himsa. The himsa at hand is loose nukes. Yes spies, police and military will help. But information, teaching, ahimsa, modeling goodness, taking Gita to mecca, these will change the world in a real way.
But then remember. The war is eternal. The battle of devas and asuras is eternal. It is personal, it is social, it is military, it is religious, it is ecological… The use of himsa is the defeat of the individual soul (the attacker). The use of power to sustain ahmisa is simply karma. (a state is soul-less though and does not suffer such encumbrance of morality; though a king does) The teaching is also karma. Which karma will you bear responsibility for? Or are you ready to transcend karma and act in the manner of Arjuna?
(a catholic secular land! - what are you kidding?)
hariaum
January 10th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
A few random thoughts:
1. The vast majority of resupply, be that arms, personnel or even often orders, to the Taliban comes from Pakistan. Even in Iraq, it is suspected that much of the anti-Western militant cadre is trained or supplied by Pakistan. It could be argued that Afghanistan, Iraq and even Iran are merely distractions which amount to little more than skirmishes on the sidelines; probably the biggest source of worldwide Islamist terrorism today is Pakistan. Ironically enough, Pakistan is also one of the prime allies in The War Against Terror - TWAT (sic).
2. Islamist fanatics and the military have historically been aligned in Pakistan; it is naive to think that this does not remain the case even today, despite their connection being less obvious now than it has generally been in the past.
3. To say that Pakistan’s military/intelligence services cannot possibly have been behind Bhutto’s assassination because otherwise they would have succeeded the first time is a circular argument - regardless of how good any service, armed or intelligence, is, on any operation, there will always be confounding variables which cannot be taken into account; as such, there is always the possibility of failure.
4. Had Pakistan (including modern-day Bangladesh) not been separated at the time of Partition, what is the likelihood that India would today be an Islamic state? Indeed, given the financial, military and technological advantage that would potentially offer the Islamists, it is frightening to think what an Islamic India could mean for the world.
5. Gandhian non-violence may well have been (and in my personal opinion, certainly was) badly thought out, impractical and hugely damaging in both the short and long terms. Nevertheless, Krishna-ite ahimsa is a very positive thing - does Krishna tell one to turn the other cheek? Or does he imply that whilst committing violence oneself is himsa, allowing violence to go unchecked is also himsa, and therefore if violence is the only way to stop violence, the duty of the ahimsak is to fight? That fighting may take many different forms is another matter..
January 20th, 2008 at 7:47 am
Following from what I said above, a couple of things have caught my interest:
1. In the past few days, the Chief of the General Staff, Gen Sir Richard Dannatt visited Basrah, Iraq. During his visit, one of the things he said in his briefing was that the British Government and Armed Forces are now firmly of the opinion that the global conveyor of international Islamic terrorism is Pakistan. He further noted that not only is there a substantial Pakistani community within Britain, but also some 30,000 Pakistanis travel between Pakistan and Britain each year; there is therefore a very real (and already realised) threat of ‘homegrown’ terrorism.
2. Prime Minister Gordon Brown is currently embarking upon the second leg of his Asia visit, arriving in India primarily to promote stronger economic links between Britain and India. Whilst this may be ostensibly the main reason for his visit, however, he has called on the Indian Government to play a greater role in combating terrorism, saying that extremist ideologies needed to be fought and that cooperation across religions was very important. The text of Prime Minister Brown’s own statement, from The Hindu is at: http://www.hindu.com/2008/01/20/stories/2008012050961000.htm
My own initial thoughts on these two statements by people at the very top of British policy-making are:
1. Are we honestly to believe that the British authoritis are only now realising the huge part Pakistan plays in exporting Islamic terrorism? And even if this is the case, why is it then that Pakistan remains one of the foremost allies in the war against terror, and therefore untouchable by any anti-terrorist forces?
2. It is ironic that when the Bombay skyline was flattened and up to 3,000 people were killed in the Bombay blasts of 1993, the UK called for restraint; likewise after each terrorist attack in Jammu & Kashmir; similarly when the Indian Parliament itself was attacked. And yet now, India is expected to suddenly take a greater role in combating terrorism because British and American targets are being attacked as well? Still, at least the UK is formally acknowledging that what India has been dealing with all these years is actually “terrorism” and not merely a “militancy”, “insurgency”, “separatist struggle” or any of the other toned down epithets that have traditionally been used for any terrorism other than that faced by the UK and US; perhaps I might suggest as a next step, acknowledging the existence of “Kashmiri refugees”?
I for one will be most interested in the Indian response to this, and even more interested to see how exactly the UK et al decide to deal with the growing ‘realisation’ of Pakistan’s role in international terrorism..
January 21st, 2008 at 8:24 pm
America long time ago said it has no long term allies. It has kept to its word. The allies of America are those that further its policy. The same is true of the UK and others though they may not say it so boldly. The same shold be true for non-alligned nations. Nations, as political (power based) entities must be aligned to their own power. Humans, on the other hand, are aligned to Truth = atman yukta paratman. This teaching is the only way past the problems of the modern world. But this means removing political boundaries and defining states / nations as administrative centers only - a dream far from being realized.
If the Kashmiris and Khalistanis can’t figure out that they are stooges to Pakistan then how will the US and UK?
But I think they still miss the point. The government of these groups (Pakistan) is not at fault. The belief that one book has the right to tell every human how to live is the fault. We could destroy Pakistan and the problem would exist. We could destroy Mecca and the problem would still exist. We could kill 90% of muslims and the problem would still exist. Destruction is not a solution.
But if we could teach ahimsa. If we could teach satyagraha. If we could teach tolerance. If we could teach equality of opportunity. If we could teach the atman=parataman=everyotheratmanoutthere. Then perhaps we can improve the situation significantly. Until then, if not one country, then another, if not one dicatator then another, if not one book of hateful divinity then another. This is the war of muslims v islam. The self preservation actions of others (christians, hindus, buddhists…) simply empowers islam to increase hate; it is knowledge and self realization that empowers muslims to increase satcitananda. That is what we must help with.
hariaum
January 22nd, 2008 at 8:41 pm
Further to the comments by Gen Sir Dannatt reference the growing problem in Britain of ‘homegrown’ terrorism [see my comment above], a report in The Times dated 17 Jan 2008 is of interest to all British Hindus, particularly in the light of an earlier discussion here on Hindu Voice regarding racial profiling, etc.
[Begin extract]
US sees Britain as main terror threat
The biggest terrorist threat to the US now comes from home-grown Islamic extremists in Britain and the rest of Europe, the head of the US Homeland Security Department has said (Michael Evans writes).
Michael Chertoff indicated in a BBC interview that he wanted tougher security measures at airports to prevent extremists trying to reach the US via the visa-waiver programme under which Europeans can holiday there without applying for a visa.
Yesterday British security sources confirmed that a new militant website had claimed that an al-Qaeda organisation exists in Britain. It appeared to be just another “aspirational” website, one said; al-Qaeda would not broadcast a presence in this way.
[End extract]
January 22nd, 2008 at 8:57 pm
More detail on the above comments by Michael Chertoff, including a link to the full interview, is available on the BBC website at:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7190788.stm
January 23rd, 2008 at 4:18 pm
Satya says, amongst other very valid points:
“..British Government and Armed Forces are now firmly of the opinion that the global conveyor of international Islamic terrorism is Pakistan..” (*Emphasis here are shifting)
Dhaaa .. lol it seems that the British Govt. has woken up from deep coma .. we have been saying that to the Govt. and to the BBC/ITV news channels for decades, from bitter experience of Pakistani activities against India on 2 fronts:
1. Direct from Pakistan against India.
2. And, internally from Pakistanis living in India.
Welcome to the new dawn Mr. Brown .. why does the British Government always ignore Indian advice, and say 20 years down the road what we’ve told them all along .. it too late now. They is here, hold British passports, live in council homes, claim dole .. and the burden gets heavier by the day…by the people who claim their faith is peaceful with which Gordon Brown agrees?
There is, of course, always a solution to a problem….
Anyway Satya, putting this “flippancy” aside, there is a more sinister situation developing in India, nurtured by Sonia’s Congress led Govt. which is this:
* The HQ of the new “epicentre” of international Islamic terrorist activity has successfully relocated in the South of India, now fully operational with massive financial support from Britain; The Pakistanis living in the UK, and by the Saudi Government.. One needs to be blind not to see that.
The terrorists work with relative impunity, protected from within the very heart of the Delhi administration where Muslim ministers within the Congress government give their countrymen total political cover and immunity from the security services.
I think Gordon Brown realises this, and one wonders what was discussed in private between him and PM Manmohan Singh without Sonia’s knowledge?
Its still not too late … but first, the Islamic terror organisation must be uprooted from India - under pressure to the unwilling Congress Government of India, by “a coalition of the willing… perhaps????” ie. Britain, France, Germany, Denmark, Sweden, USA, Canada, and of the the ever reluctant India?
LOL … how is that for humour then?
February 4th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
I don’t know if anyone here gets The Economist, but the January 3rd edition was fascinating, two articles in particular on the specific topic at hand. They are also available online at:
Pakistan: The World’s Most Dangerous Place (cover feature)
http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10430237
Pakistan: A Country On The Brink
http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10430324
Pravin raises some interesting thoughts regarding India’s status as an Islamic terror base. It is certainly true that India is a particularly big exporter of Islamic terrorism - indeed in the British context, many of those implicated in the foiled Glasgow Airport attack were Indian Muslims. I would not presume to guess (as a guess is all it could possibly be) to what extent this is Government-supported, be that inadvertently or deliberately, passively or actively. However, either way, it is certainly something that India will, sooner rather than later, be forced to come to terms with and act on.
February 5th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
Satya says:
“I would not presume to guess (as a guess is all it could possibly be) to what extent this is Government-supported, be that inadvertently or deliberately, passively or actively”
Simply to clarify, what I was suggesting is (rather then could be) the case is:
These terrorists operating in India are:
“protected from within the very heart of the Delhi administration where Muslim ministers within the Congress government give their countrymen total political cover and immunity from the security services”
Again, to clarify, I am suggesting that its the Muslim politicians (of which there are so many) within the Congress led Parliament who are all but affiliated with the terror cells, offer them quiet and discreet political cover and near immunity from within the governemnt, “unknown” to Sonia Gandhi, and her SPECIAL special services?
Could this, perhaps, be termed as “inadvertent” or “passive support”? I guess its does.
Did you say “Indian Muslims”, Satya ????…???? Ahem Ahem …
February 6th, 2008 at 10:30 am
Pakistan is not at brink, you are wrong again. It got supports from both EEC and USA as they both need Pakistan very soon to kill the Serbian, as Pakistan did by sending 200,000 trainned Arab terrorists from Pakistan to Bosnia in 1992. The same situation is now developing in Kosovo, which will be an independent Muslim country very soon.
Thus, USA and EEC need some justification. In 1992 they have created communal riots and mass murder of the Serbian, which was suppressed in the Western Press( in the same way the Western press never reported the mass murder of the hindus in Kashmir from 1989 and in Bangladesh in 2001). When the Serbian started retaliation immediately the Western press
started demonising the Serbian as ebils.
The same is true about Hindus in Gujarat, there is no shortages of tears for the Muslim victims even after 6 years but no one remembers the cause.
Pakistan has received so far more than $10 Billion of military aid from USA since 9/11, although Pakistan’s ISI has sent money to Md.Attah, the leader of the attacker of 9/11.
Pakistan has received every kind of arms, including nuclear weapons and missiles from China. Pakistan is all means is more powerful than India regading nuclear weapons.
Pakistan is already in charge of half of Afghanistan through Taliban. British government is now trainning Talibans and is about to have some collaboration with them. There is now an understanding that USA and UK is about to hand over Afghanistan to Pakistan.
It is India who is in a miserable situation with a PM who is nothing but an agent of USA; his coalition partner CPI(M) is an agent of China.
Hindus are in humiliating condition in Malaysia, but this week Man Mohan Singh is negotiationg with the Malaysian government to have a free trade regime with India.
Although Hindus are 82 percent of India, we are marginalised in India by a combination of Sikh, Christian, Muslims and Pro-Chinese elements.
February 6th, 2008 at 10:54 am
It’s an interesting suggestion, which may well be true - I don’t know. This last is my point. Taking it a step further then, since we do not actually know at this point what the truth in this situation is, the following questions come to mind:
1. What steps can be taken to find out the actual situation here, in terms of (a) whether or not this is actually happening, and (b) if it is happening, then to what extent and in what manner?
2. If it is found that what you suggest is actually happening, then what steps ought to be, and can be, taken? Example suggestions may be: take no active measures, but monitor and use the situation as an intelligence-gathering opportunity; simply name and shame, thereby not only ultimately removing the elements involved, but also potentially making some political gains (both nationally and internationally) from the situation; or remove the involved elements in some other manner…this list is far from exhaustive.
Yes, I did say Indian doctors - the Ahmed brothers (Kafeel and Sabeel) and Mohamed Haneef were all implicated in the attack and are all Indian Muslims, albeit Haneef was acquitted by the Australian courts; I understand that the Australian Federal Police are still continuing an investigation against him.
February 9th, 2008 at 4:13 am
These two doctors are linked with the terrorists who attacked Glasgow airport recently. They are relatives. I went to Glasgow a few months ago. On the street near the Muslim area of Glasgow ( near the Glasgow University) there are lots of Pakistanis walking with white robes of Shahid ( which means they are prepared to die to promote Muslim cause), however British authorities do not care.
British government even appointed a Pakistani Saddiq Khan as a minister but this man has close links with the terrorists who bombed London. British government is actively helping Taliban.
That is the reason Afghan government recently expelled one British and another Irish diplomats from Afghanistan and said openly that it was a mistake for Afghanistan to allow the British to control Helmund province which was now handed over to the Taliban by the British soldiers.
Thus this “war on terror’ is all farce. As a result Pakistan became stronger. Now the Muslim terrorists in Kosovo is declaring the independence of that province which would be recognized by the EEC and USA governments.
If the EEC and USA recognize the independent Muslim government of Kashmir what can India do??
February 10th, 2008 at 1:07 am
“..the Ahmed brothers (Kafeel and Sabeel) and Mohamed Haneef were all implicated in the attack and are all Indian Muslims..”
Opinions differ, intellectually, politically and diplomatically. I maintain Indians are: Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists, Catholic/Christians and Jewish Indians.
Why? Because people of these faiths make India the secular tolerant state which can be peaceful India under those circumstances as they all agree to live under the one Indian Constitutional law without insisting on living under Sharia so as to carve out a state within a state, and even demand separation and indipendence perhaps, further dividing India?
It does make me wonder how they can be called Indian?
Obviously Ahmed brothers and Haneef were born, and live in India along with nearly 200 million others who all have Indian passports but, as opinions go I would personally refrain from calling them Indian. They are Muslims living in India, and I differentiate in terminology.
“.. What steps can be taken to find out the actual situation here, in terms of (a) whether or not this is actually happening, and (b) if it is happening, then to what extent and in what manner? ..”
Concrete proof of course is not available, but a lot of news in the media makes for “good reason to so suspect” in that direction.
Have a look at this this link:
http://www.hindujagruti.org/news/4016.html
where men like Firoz Sanadi are made Mayor of an Indian city who had “alledged” links with the extreme Islamic group SIMI, the word alledged having to be used by the publisher for obvious political reasons.
Mayors know councillors, who know ministers, who know MP’s, who know ministers … all of whom are Muslim politicians in Parliament … I do not believe this to be a “conspiracy theory” for there does appear to be negligence, if not gross negligence on part of the Congress Government who will not take firm decisive action on Islamic terrorists now consolidating, for obvious reasons?
“..If the EEC and USA recognize the independent Muslim government of Kashmir what can India do??..”
The Indian Congress Govt. does nothing to stop the mayhem being wreaked on Indians in Kashmir in any case, perhaps because “it is correct” for the majority in Kashmir to clean home under the current secular and communal law, with seemingly governmental blessings signified by its non-action for the safeguard of Indians living in Kashmir?
The way the Indian government is behaving, it appears that it would be relief for Sonia and her loyal PM for such recognition of Islamia Kashmir by the EU & USA ???…???
February 10th, 2008 at 6:02 pm
I understand what you are saying and your reasoning here. However, this implies that ALL Muslims in India harbour anti-national sentiments and that NO Hindus, Christians, Buddhists, etc. are enemies of the State. I put it to you that neither of these assertions stand up to objective assessment.
February 11th, 2008 at 7:00 am
Pravin:
It was the Hindu leaders who made India Secular. Look at the neighbours of India.
Sri Lanka a Buddhist majority is killing the monority Hindus since 1980 only because the Hindus want basic Human Rights to be treated as equals in a country where they also have lived for thousands of years. Sri Lanka had expelled all Indian Hindus who went to live there for last 170 years.
Burma a Buddhist country also had expelled all Indian Hindus who used to live in Burma for more than 150 years, as Burma was seperated from India only in 1938.
Pakistan had brutally killed and expelled almost all non-Muslims.
Sikhs have not much love for the Hindus, they stay in India as they know they will be slaughtered by the Muslims if they are alone.
However, it was a mistake for India not to have an exchange of population with Pakistan in 1947 when the country was divided by the Muslim to create a separate Muslim country. Exchange of population with Pakistan in 1947 could not solved most of the problem.
Now India has to wait for another partition because Muslims in India are not really a part of India, they just live there to create a third Pakistan sooner or later.
Thus, India is in brink because of the short-sighted policy of Gandhi-Nehru-Patel who have partitioned India. They had wool on their eyes. They have created so many problems that in future India will be overwhelmed to solve these.
February 11th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
“I put it to you that neither of these assertions stand up to objective assessment”
It’s not an objective assessment of my views that I seek at this moment. I merely prompt the Hindu and the Sikh to delve deeper into their inner thoughts and ponder on the psyche of Islamic agenda of intent by Muslims living in India.
I divide the issue into two. Faith related partition is anti-national, but not so opposing political party policies - eg. Congress V BJP V Communists etc.
1.
“this implies that ALL Muslims in India harbour anti-national sentiments”
Yes, that is what I think as explained earlier.
I theorise, rather then imply that all Muslims in any country other then their own Islamic countries are anti-national, enforced by their unwillingness to live under the Indian law in this case, their refusal to integrate with their host nation in any non-Islamic country they choose to live in including their very moderate and gracious host India. I maintain it is upon the Muslims to win the hearts and minds of the people of the host country they choose to live in, and not the other way round as they are now accustomed to expect. I think they realise these sentiments are now changing.
They signify this irrevocably by insisting on their Islamic dress code, an attire which I suggested they should limit to private indoors use.
Then of course, if all Muslims did not harbour anti-national sentiments, does it not stand to reason that they should unequivocally revoke Sharia, or such requests in any host non-Muslim land, limit worship gatherings at Mosques only to prayer, close Maddrassas in favour normal schools, and stop terror activities in India? In fact, why not prove to Indians their nationalistic-ness by refusing to vote for purely Islamic political parties in India, and demonstrating against those Islamic terrorists whom they support like they demonstrated in all host countries against the Iraq invasion, Salman Rushdie and Mahommad’s cartoons?
These are but a few and simplistic thoughts in this respect, its further and more detailed debate not possible on this platform.
2.
In relation to:
“NO Hindus, Christians, Buddhists, etc. are enemies of the State”
I differentiate here on the use of the word “enemies”. Agitation due to a different political belief is not animosity. A need to carve out an Islamic state within India by Muslims living there is, and which can perhaps fit the spirit of your word better i.e. terror attacks on India by Muslims born in India.
I would then ask of the Hindu and the Sikh: We have to start reparation work somewhere, and at sometime, and one at a time.
This also addresses A. Moron’s thoughts although I don’t agree with his view: “Sikhs have not much love for the Hindus”. I have very dear friends who are Sikh and this is not how their majority feel. Unlike Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Sikhs, Hindus and Jews are Indians together, capable to talking out their differences without the need for Jihad.
February 12th, 2008 at 4:22 am
Pravin:
I am sure you do not live in India and as a result you have different ideas. The reality is very different.
Hindus and Biddhists are not allowed to stay in the North Eastern states ( Meghalaya, Mizoram, Nagaland, Arunachal Pradesh and in the tribal areas of Tripura and Manipur). They are being told to get converted into Christianity or get out. The same process is now going on ( to convert the tribals into Christianity) in Central India and in a few decades thoses areas would be out of bounds for Hindus as well.
Hindus will not dare to go to the Muslim areas or certain states or Muslim areas of major cities. At any moment they can start riots, as we have seen last month in Calcutta suddenly when they were demanding expulsion of Taslima Nasreen.
The same is true about Punjab. Sikhs are very well behaved outside Punjab, but it is not safe for the Hindus to go to Punjab.
In the rest of India there is safety either because of the terrorists who are mainly Muslim. That is the reason it is still better to think about an exchange of population which should have taken place in 1947.
February 12th, 2008 at 9:37 pm
The muslim and christian both consider justice to be in their being treated with special rules. Others fight for equal treatment of all. Neither the christian nor the muslim as such care a bit about India except as a place needing to be converted to “monotheism.” Note Africa. Once converted they care not for justice, or equality, or rights, or nationhood. Once converted the society falls apart and that is not relevant to the church or the mosque except in their need to prove their own church/mosque the true church.
The christo-islamists very much cooperate only to build power to overthrow and oppress.
However, I have read of many “muslims” who fight other muslim nations for India’s freedom. I would say that they have proven themselves at least as individuals. Perhaps these are the minority, perhaps not. Perhaps they are not good muslims but simply good persons. There is a great deal of confusion between national, ethnic, and religious identity - mostly propagated by dvaitic perspectives of truth. A person who swears allegiance to a country is that countries national. a person who swears there is only one way to god is of that monothink tradition. sometimes these conflict, but like all humans harboring conflicting beliefs they struggle and find a livable space.
- We can not allow ourselves the luxury of simplistic thinking (of only categories) and still pursue the truth. Never condemn an individual. But do condemn the ideology the person holds if it is asatvic and himsic.
hariaum