1984 & the Future of Hindu-Sikh Relations
As I hit young adulthood, many of my friends were Sikhs. Most of them were much more into politics than the Hindus I knew, and it was hanging around with them that I was first made aware of the deep tensions that existed between the various religious communities of the world. While most Sikhs I knew generally talked of Hindus and Sikhs as having a close historical kinship, there were many bones of contention which were often brought up – about events that occurred before I was even born. The most common of these gripes was the treatment of Sikhs by the Indian government (which they wrongly blamed on Hindus at large) in the year 1984. Coupled with this was…
July 8th, 2007 at 10:50 pm
Was there need particular need to involve RSS in your article?
Incase you were not aware RSS aknowledges Sikhism as an independent religion which stems from Hinduism, and works to promote unity between the two religions.
July 9th, 2007 at 9:44 am
Bansri, no offence but you have pure wool over your eyes. As you should know, the current RSS Chief is Sudarshan. Type in “Sudarshan Sikhs are Hindus” into Google, and you will see many “All Sikhs are Hindus” statements coming from the knickerwallah chief.
July 9th, 2007 at 11:36 am
Dangerous,
Whats wrong in saying all Sikhs are Hindus? ‘Hinduism’ has millions of branches/philosophies and the word itself is an umberella term coined by parsis to understand the composite culture of India. Rather than every fringe group calling themselves as ‘independent of hinduism’ and proactively working towards segregation, they should first learn about their roots and unite under the ‘hindu’ umberella - which literally provides infinite freedom.
The first sikh guru WAS INDEED a ‘Hindu’, just like Gautama Siddharth was a ‘Hindu’ and so is Sri Sri, Mata Amritanandamayi, Vivekananda, Rama Krishna etc. Their followers would do more justice to their Master’s teachings by reognizing their rooots and adhering to the spirit the teachings [DERIVED from the ocean called ‘Hinduism’] - staying united rather than segregating with the fear of ‘losing identity’!!
July 9th, 2007 at 12:47 pm
“Whats wrong in saying all Sikhs are Hindus?”
What’s wrong is that Sikhs do not want to be called Hindus, understood?
“The first sikh guru WAS INDEED a ‘Hindu’”
Not what Sikhs believe
“Their followers would do more justice to their Master’s teachings by reognizing their rooots and adhering to the spirit the teachings [DERIVED from the ocean called ‘Hinduism’] - staying united rather than segregating with the fear of ‘losing identity’!! ”
If you wan to then become a practicing Sikh and see if you can change their direction.
As a Hindu it doesn’t concern me what Sikhs think of themselves as but when Hindus go out of their way to prove that they are Hindu it makes Hindus look like total buffoons.
July 9th, 2007 at 1:32 pm
very interesting article i have come across similar situations such as you have decribed regarding sikh freinds about the subject khalistan and due to lack of knowledge on the subject i failed to look at both sides of the arguement upon the matter. I have been to discussion classes in the uk within gudwaras where hatred and discrimination is preached against religions such as muslims and hindus and being a hindu myself i was shocked how many sikhs adopted these ludacris ideas, althought i also learned peoples point of view on how corrupt the indian goverment has been in the past. One point this article points out that is true each religion should look back and examine its history thoroughly and try to make the relationships between religions less hostile and more equal.
July 9th, 2007 at 3:35 pm
Its good that Khalistan never prevailed but is there still extremists who feel that it is on the agenda.However India being a great pluralistic country forgets old harms easily let alone pursue a continuos course of seoaration. Sikhs are born of Hinduism and just because thier territory is all farm land and thier elders sought to call themselves Panjabis and started the Sikh Religion. The word Guru is used to mean to follow a leader who is all powerful and knowledgeable one who is looked upon for guidance. There is no difference in Indians /Panjabis or Hindus and Sikhs. Let this matter be a chronological part of developmental History in Indian maturity. The Pakistan issue is all Muslim Hindu separation and all too extremely politically religious.Hostility breeds segregation, whereas among Hindus and Sikhs assimilation is all too prevalent because no one finds a difference between the two. Let History judge and let it remain in its place do not bring this up to agitate this enmity when there is none.
morganlal
July 9th, 2007 at 10:29 pm
Harish…couldnt agree with you more…
I HATE it when Hindus bend over backwards to make out as if Sikhs are Hindus. The Sikhs that DO consider that to be the case..fair enough…the ones that dont…leave them to it!..who cares! We are a great people with an amazing history replete with stories of heroism, dedication, religiousity, compassion…we have had some of the greatest warriors, fighters the world has ever seen..one of the most illustrious and beautiful cultures in the world…why we feel the need to constantly lick ass is beyond me..
July 9th, 2007 at 11:24 pm
“Whats wrong in saying all Sikhs are Hindus?”
Whats wrong is that they dont want to be hindus, if that fact was pummelled into your brain a million times, you still wouldn’t get it .
July 10th, 2007 at 12:49 pm
sikhs are very similair in their views of faith.
The follow all birth and death rites of hindus, celebrate diwali, holi and full moons like hindus do. prasad is given in temples and gurudwaras after being offered to God. Pooja is done in gurudwaras and also ardas, there are so many other similiar things and all unite our faiths ……
we are all briothers and sisters.
waheguru, har ki bani
jai krishan
July 10th, 2007 at 12:49 pm
In the Indian Constitution the Sikhs are lumped together with Hindus, Jains and Budhists. They now appear to shun their Hindu roots and seems to want to be recognised as a seprate Sikh Nation and possibly given a seprate sikh nation state. Sikh are a volatile minority and should be handled with care. Most Sikhs especially the urban type are nationalists in outlook and are perhaps still considere themselves as a part of the mainstream Hindu rashtra.but some rural sikhs harbour some subdued sepratists ambitions.which thanks to Pakistan, now and again raises its head The slightest disturbance in Punjab starts to create ripples in the UK and Canada. Recently a meeting of some Sikhs in Brimigham which was attended by Lord Nazir Ahmed and another British MP of Pakistani origin passed a resolution in favour of Khalistan as the Sikh considered India to be a failed state. wasconsidered that India wasconsidered a failed state,
July 10th, 2007 at 12:58 pm
The Sikh are an enterprising people.They are hard working and are generally quite well off. They form about two per cent of the total Indian population They are spread all over India and some forty percent live out of Punjab. They have some very important places in the rest of India. There is no political, racial or social discrimination against them. Their representation is about 14 per cent in the Army alone
July 10th, 2007 at 1:41 pm
I am sorry the person that worte this does not kow what happened in full detail. next time ask people that kkow what they are talking about and i am UPSET THAT the full informmaton is not haer and sikhs are not hindus we got hour own ID
July 10th, 2007 at 2:01 pm
Hinduism and Sikhism complement one another….. seva is emphasised and pray……..both faiths ask for humility …good hindus and sikhs are veggies….. Gurur granth sahib calls on Lord Krishna , Shiva , Brahma and vishnu in prays …..both Gita and bani look at false gods and false demigods. gita and bani both ask devotees to worship with full devotion ….to release from materialistic attachement and devote to bhakti…… Guru Granth ji is modern Gita ….. So many hyms are dedicated to Hindu gods and Govinda, hari, ram and gopala are mentioned at least one hundred times in Granth refering to our Lord. guru nanak saw that Hindus were coming away from the true path of Hinduism and therefore reformed Hindu faith ….. what are the differences between sikhs and hindus ,,,,,,there are none if you look at the religion itself…
Ravi
July 10th, 2007 at 2:09 pm
ravi sharma don’t u have anything better to do than grovelling all day?
listen mate, sikhs don’t want to be called Hindus and they think they are a separate religion, can’t you get that through your thick head?
some Hindus seem to have an inferiority complex about sikhs, that’s why they repeatedly talk about them being Hindus, god save Hindus with jokers like these representing our community.
July 10th, 2007 at 2:23 pm
“i am UPSET THAT the full informmaton is not haer ”
So what is that information.Far as what I read the article is well balanced.
“sikhs are not hindus we got hour own ID ”
Yeh but doesn’t the article in the last paragraph point in that direction?
July 10th, 2007 at 3:01 pm
Harish duggrila …. i feel you are wrong …good sikhs will say that they are nether hindu nor muslim nor sikh….they are disciples of the true pathway ……. sikhism means to learn …thats what sikhs do the whole time …they are not to question muslim or hindu , they are live a rightous life of good and seva…..
A sikh is against all paap …bad things , no sikh will fight on grounds of hindu faith or belief….. Go to Patna gurudwara dedicated to Guru Govind singhji last guru….they have icons , and images of him , they perform Pooja with divas and incense….. the bani is Gita and Koran …….The bani is a true pathway …pls read and understand it harish only then will you realise what a true sikh follows…..by wearing a turban and beard you don’t become a Sikh….. Nishkam seva karo…service without reward….wand chako ..serve others….naam simaran …chant the lords name and love everyone …..this is hindu and sikh………
The bani (guru granth sahib ) teaches a path of self realisation …..whether thats through Ram , Allah or Nanak the bani says just serve others and submit to your Lord……….
Sikhism is reformed Hinduism like it or not …..pls can we have a sikh scholar to discuss this point….sorry harish you not that level//////
sikhism is a path that anyone can follow……. not all sikhs follow the path of Sikhism !!!!!!!!
ravi
July 10th, 2007 at 7:43 pm
mate i know more about sikhism than a confused soul like you does, all that trying to convince Sikhs are Hindus won’t get u nowhere with sikhs.
i guess some Hindus r just born losers and bound to grovel all their life.
this should be a lesson to all Hindus, raise your kids as proper Hindus, otherwise they will end up as beggars and grovellers to people who dont like them.
July 11th, 2007 at 7:43 am
harish duggirala you have made not one point with any reference to scriptures….. you have spoke put of your behind …… pls use some quotes or points don’t just waffle………
Your are telegu…….south Indian Hinduism is very different from North Hindu and sikhism……..Dravidian styles are differetn in traditions and worship….
If you look at south hindu worship it is like a differetn religion…archaras , abheshekams , maha abhsekaham s and worship of planets is unheard of in north hindu vaishnava ……
South Indians have different gods( Murugan, balaji, katikaya , bachara devi to name a few……. Priests are used to speak to gods and potray messages, sanctorum of shrines are only for priests …… non hindus are not allowed into many shrines
Hinduism is very open …….even to form of south Hindu worship which is foreign to me ……i go to Gurudwara and understand Gurmukhi worship and pray ……. i am hindu but not as narrow minded as you ……\
Jai nanak dev ji
jai murugan jai
ravi
July 11th, 2007 at 5:30 pm
“Your are telegu…….south Indian Hinduism is very different from North Hindu and sikhism……..Dravidian styles are differetn in traditions and worship….
If you look at south hindu worship it is like a differetn religion…archaras , abheshekams , maha abhsekaham s and worship of planets is unheard of in north hindu vaishnava ……
South Indians have different gods( Murugan, balaji, katikaya , bachara devi to name a few……. Priests are used to speak to gods and potray messages, sanctorum of shrines are only for priests …… non hindus are not allowed into many shrines
Hinduism is very open …….even to form of south Hindu worship which is foreign to me ……i go to Gurudwara and understand Gurmukhi worship and pray ……. i am hindu but not as narrow minded as you ”
Mr Ravi, here you are pointing out difference between southindian form of worship and North Indian, whatta BS, Maan first understand agamas and then talk.
But you don’t find any difference between sikhism and Hinduism. why????
Just arguing for the sake of argument will not lead you anywhere,
Any way we have you as a good example of a royal jester.
Salutations to you
July 11th, 2007 at 9:52 pm
“harish duggirala you have made not one point with any reference to scriptures….. you have spoke put of your behind …… pls use some quotes or points don’t just waffle………”
ya like you quoted scripture so far!!!
practice what u preach.
“Your are telegu…….south Indian Hinduism is very different from North Hindu and sikhism……..Dravidian styles are differetn in traditions and worship….”
what did i tell u people, we have morons here who have been brainwashed with nonsense, the fact is most North Hindus I know do not identify with Sikhism and would feel far more closer in a South Indian Hindu temple.
“South Indians have different gods( Murugan, balaji, katikaya , bachara devi to name a few……. Priests are used to speak to gods and potray messages, sanctorum of shrines are only for priests …… non hindus are not allowed into many shrines ”
You are an idiot, Murugan is a Hindu deity not a “South Indian” or “North Indian” deity, his other name is Karthikeya and he is mentioned in Mahabharata, if you read a bit of scripture then you would stop farting gas.
Non Hindus are also not allowed into Puri Jagannath Mandir in Orissa, I would like you to tell me since when exactly has Orissa become South India?
“Hinduism is very open …….even to form of south Hindu worship which is foreign to me ……i go to Gurudwara and understand Gurmukhi worship and pray ……. i am hindu but not as narrow minded as you”
Listen you moron, what u do is not our business, u can go worship at a mosque for all we care, the simple fact is that a majority of sikhs don’t want to be called Hindus.
If u like them so much then take Amrit and join the Khalsa, not give empty lectures and spew nonsense about “North Indian Hinduism” and “South Indian Hinduism”.
This is what happens if u raise ur kids as clueless people, soon some moron will start claiming that he goes to his local mosque and those who don’t are “narrow minded”.
The reality is that they hate morons like you who are bent upon grovelling before them and insisting that they are Hindus.
July 12th, 2007 at 12:32 am
By the way there is no such thing as “Gurmukhi worship”, Gurmukhi is a script used to write Punjabi you clown.
July 12th, 2007 at 10:21 pm
harish, dont waste your energy,
what can you expect from a dimwit moron who thinks the world is held up by elephants or something…
July 13th, 2007 at 5:34 pm
please guys. can we not fight amongst ourselves. we need to be strong and united. this discussion has turned into something else. BTW, this article has been posted on some of the sikh sites too. for their point of view, read this:
http://www.tapoban.org/phorum/read.php?f=1&i=118047&t=118047
some moron (named SomeSingh) said this:
“there was a survey some time ago of the top 400 university students in india. they were asked who their most admired person was. in order - gandhi, nehru, hitler.
yep, adolf hitler came in #3. it’s no big surprise hindu newspapers resort to soo much propaganda.”
sounds like khalistani propaganda to me. has anyone heard of this survey?
July 14th, 2007 at 3:28 pm
i wonder why this nut loser ravi sharma didn’t reply. maybe because he got severely exposed for not even knowing what gurmukhi is.
ravi sharma i dont think you go to gurudwara for any spiritual upliftment.
you’re a shameless fool who goes for langar.
no wonder you like them so much.
btw, look up bhakti movement u loser. the “oh so different” “southern” hinduism movement that affected whole of india, even nanak got his inspiration from this movement from the “southern hinduism”.
one more thing ravi sharma, i want you to go to a gurudwara and shout loudly “SIKHS ARE HINDUS”.
you will get your answer. shameless clown. keep licking their feet, go see how they talk about hindus in their forums. last thing we need is jokers like you who create divisions within hindu society and then suck up to people who abhor our faith.
July 15th, 2007 at 8:33 pm
The Sikh community is a tiny minority, which is a part of the Hindu Commonwealth. Whether they want a seperate identity or not is unimportant. What is more important is that there is unity amongs Hindus and taking the above comments as a small example, I believe this is our greatest weakness!
There has been very little dialogue between the Hindu youth until recently and as a result young Hindus have formed their opinion based on what they learn from the mass media.
This is why there are so many differing opinions. This website, as well as the many other Hindu forums which exist today, will help in uniting the Hindu Voice.
I sincerely wish that we unite in thought and opinion so that we can portray a strong presence in the world. The need for Hindu unity is greater than ever.
Hindus must unite!
July 16th, 2007 at 10:14 am
gurus fought for hinduism …
guru teg bahadur ji stopped brahamins being circumstised … he stopped beef being put into prashaad, veiling of hindu women and hindu men being taxed ……..
guruji sacrificed his own life for the hindu faith !!!!!!!!! he wanted no brahmin to ever halal his own cattle ….he wanted no hindu women to have her sisters as her husbands wives……
Guru ji martyred himself ……. all guru’s sacrified thier lives for hindu faith……… Aurengzeb would of made a good muslim of you harish.
ravi
July 16th, 2007 at 10:18 am
guru teg bahadur ji stopped circumstision of hindu brahmins , he stopped beef being put into prashaad, he stopped hindu women being veiled and saved hindu faith….aurenzeb would of made a good muslim of harish….
All guru’s defended hindu faith and were murdered by moguls…..they sacrified thier lives for hindu faith,.,,,,,,,heads were chopped and finger cut off…..buried alive…..all so that you may not be circumstised….
ravi
July 16th, 2007 at 10:23 am
sorry harish your lungi would not of helped you when you are being circumstised…… even eelam shop can’t help you against the muslim world and tyrants……….
We hindus with are dhotis and lungis…….look to sikhs with respect ….they are brothers that upheld our faith with dignity and respect!!!!!!!!
jai guru gobind
jai sri krishna
July 16th, 2007 at 1:17 pm
ravi sharma looks like u lost the plot so ur nonsensical rant, tegh bahadur never saved Hindus and he stopped nothing, he was martyred alright but that didn’t stop anything you idiot, Hindus were still persecuted until the Marathas broke the Mughals, and what a joker you r, all the Gurus sacrificed themselves for Hindus, lol is that why the last Guru reached a compromise with Mughals and received land in Nanded?
face it u don’t know any history nor any clue of what u r ranting about, i think u need to go back onto ur medication now.
“sorry harish your lungi would not of helped you when you are being circumstised…… even eelam shop can’t help you against the muslim world and tyrants……….
We hindus with are dhotis and lungis…….look to sikhs with respect ….they are brothers that upheld our faith with dignity and respect!!!!!!!!”
hahahahahaha, the lungi wearing LTTE cadre would make you wet your pants mate, u prob dress up like some wannabe gora in a suite and tie, that’s why u have such an inferiority complex about lungi and dhoti.
by the way mate, since u r so ignorant, the village dress worn in Punjab by sikhs is none other than lungi itself lol.
as for looking to sikhs with respect, ya right, they couldn’t even get to Delhi while the Marathas smashed up the Mughals and were ruling the largest area in Bharat till british came over (wonder why that is?)
in conclusion u r a joke who has no grasp of history and makes ur living by gorging on free langar at ur gurudwara as you’re so cheap to buy food at your local supermarket instead.
July 16th, 2007 at 1:17 pm
Ravi Sharma you prove you believe in popular myths.You think before a group of Punjabi Hindus became Sikhs that Hindus before that weren’t defending their lands and religion by outsiders 800 hundred years before ? It shows when Hindus have no knowledge of their own history they become boot lickers.
July 16th, 2007 at 2:29 pm
shut ur face……… guruji’s faced mogul oppression with the sword…. hindus would not fight because of dharma and ahimsa …
yes marathas fought …they were shivites …they fought for their own ….. gurujis fought for hindu’s who were oppressed under Muslim rule…..
South iIndian brahmins were persecuted with mass circumstisions , they were asked to put their murti’s into their own havans and made to do muslim ablutions with urine…….
this was happening to south Indians especially telugu and kannada speaking peoples …… Christians also converted half the populations through submission and sword…… British bought english to south india and it still dominates all corners of the tamil people …….
Sikhs who follow granth are real people with spiritual path….. they seek good service for god, chant name of god and serve others…..
Wahiguru ji ka kalsa
Jai govinda
jai mata ki
July 16th, 2007 at 2:47 pm
Dev get a life…… you would not even be here if sikhs did not defend Hindu faith…..
You would be facing Mecca and praying….. Circumstision would be compulsary in India and abroad ….Muslim rule took the world by storm , it went through all of Asia and North africa, all of middle east and then came to india like a storm ……. half the world at this point was at the clutches of Islam …..Mecca had 101 deities that were smashed and kabba put ontop…… all of Middle east prayed to these dieites until islam came ……
101 idols were shivite lingams and brahma statues these smashed by mohammed prophet and mecca as we know now was established.
There wass no stopping the Islam …..although hindus and sikhs did stop the mass conversions ….many smaller religions were wiped out …… Zorastrians were nearly all killed … Bahai’s were almost eradicated ….. even smaller islamic cults were forbidden…… (Alevis, sufis, Ismaelis and yalizis)
Please respect our history donn’t mock it…..
ravi
July 16th, 2007 at 2:54 pm
ravi sharma , You’re a total nutcase and total extremist.You hate muslims and you hate Christians but you even hate other Hindus who dont believe in your fiction.If you cant provide Historical facts to back your claims then you need to seriously block your behind because it talks a lot of S**t.
July 16th, 2007 at 2:59 pm
“shut ur face……… guruji’s faced mogul oppression with the sword…. hindus would not fight because of dharma and ahimsa …”
i think u ate too much dal at the gurudwara and it’s coming out as farts from ur mouth, so i think u shud shut it.
Yea righttttttttttttt, maybe that’s why gobind singh was given land by Mughals in Nanded lol.
Hindus didn’t fight cuz of “dharma” and “ahimsa” lol, I wonder who people like Maharana Hammir, Maharana Kumbha, Maharana Pratap and all were.
idiot learn some history before you rant.
“yes marathas fought …they were shivites …they fought for their own ….. gurujis fought for hindu’s who were oppressed under Muslim rule….”
you are an idiot, Marathas fought for Hindus while gobind singh’s fight had nothing at all to do with Hindus.
“South iIndian brahmins were persecuted with mass circumstisions , they were asked to put their murti’s into their own havans and made to do muslim ablutions with urine…….”
hehehehe and north indian brahmins weren’t?
“this was happening to south Indians especially telugu and kannada speaking peoples …… Christians also converted half the populations through submission and sword…… British bought english to south india and it still dominates all corners of the tamil people …….”
idiot, the christian population even to this day is nowhere near half in any of the southern states, British bought english to all of bharat u moron not just dakshin bharat.
“Sikhs who follow granth are real people with spiritual path….. they seek good service for god, chant name of god and serve others…..”
ya and i should care why?
you are some wannabe gora loser who licks to kiss sikh ass, but too bad for u the majority of Hindus are unlike u, anyway karma is a biatch and it will catch up with u in the form of some lungi wearing former ltte cadre after which u have to go hide in the gurudwara permanently.
July 16th, 2007 at 2:59 pm
Harish, This Ravi Sharma is a typical miser going for his free food everynight at the gurudwara.I bet when they see him coming they must be saying to each other here comes that kongoose ‘Bhaman’ for his free food.
July 16th, 2007 at 8:13 pm
hang on…….i think we are putting too much emphasis on the fact that ravi sharma is a hindu. what if he isn’t? after all, how hard it is to mask one’s identity on the internet?
July 17th, 2007 at 3:15 am
ravi sharma is a sikh extremist, its pretty obvious.
He’s trying really hard to prove that hindus didn’t do any fighting.
ravi sharma why don’t you answer us why MARATHAS HAD LARGEST TERRITORY IN BHARAT?
MARATHAS FOUGHT FOR ALL HINDUS. SHIVAJI SAID HE WANTED HINDAVI SWARAJYA. A HINDU NATION FOR ALL. MARATHAS CONQUERED ALL THE WAY FROM TANJAVUR TO NORTHERN FRINGES OF BHARAT.
WHILE GURU GOBIND SINGH REACHED TO A COMPROMISE WITH MUGHALS AND GOT LAND IN NANDED, MARATHA HINDUS DEFEATED MUGHALS AND BROKE THEIR BACK.
GO READ ZAFARNAMA, WHERE GOBIND SINGH HAPPILY TALKS ABOUT HOW HE BROKE HINDU MURTIS OF HINDU HILL RAJAS.
HERE ARE SOME HINDU WARRIOS WHO FOUGHT FOR THE PEOPLE -
1) Prtihviraj Chauhan
2) Hammir Deo Chauhan
3) Maharana Hammir
4) Maharana Kumbha
5) Maharana Pratap Singh
6) Lachit Borphukhan
7) Durgadas Rathore
8) Sri Krishna Deva Raya
9) Chhatrasal Bundela
10) Gokul Singh Jat
11) Rajaram Jat
12) Maharaja Surajmal
13) Lalitaditya Muktapida
14) Jaimal & Patta
15) Kumara Kampana
16) Vema Reddy
17) Prolaya Nayaka
18) Kapayya Nayaka
19) Harihara Raya
20) Bukka Raya
ravi sharma, hindus have had plenty of great warriors to defend their faith and prevent us from being converted.
July 17th, 2007 at 1:01 pm
In true Hindu dharma style i forgive you all……
my pathway teaches to enlight not cast darkness….. i am angry at you but its my nature to forgive ……pls learn about good positive , not negative…
my pathway teaches to listen and not argue ……. i am bliss full you have made note of what i ahve said….
may gods forgive your unkind words….. i alos pray for your calmness …
ravi
July 17th, 2007 at 3:27 pm
I was going to stay out of this one…I have had too many arguments with weak ass Hindus who somehow seem to think that Sikhs SAVED Hindus….and if it wasnt for the Sikhs, Hindus would have perished…what UTTER BULLSHIT. As someone pointed out in their post…what exactly were we doing for a thousand years BEFORE Sikhism when Islam was bludgeoning its way through the middle east and towards Bharat?…what were Hindus CONSTANTLY doing throughout the middle ages?…FIGHTING…RESISTING. All of the land to the west of Bharat is Muslim…..all of the land to the east of Bharat is Muslim…..yet Bharat remains over 80% Hindu to this day. Now THIS is what you call strength and doggedness. We resited the onslaught.
Yes Sikhs faught…but not ALYWAS on the side of the Hindus..and its well documented that Gobind Singh in the Zafarnama was telling aurangzeb how he is an idol smasher just like he is.
Its as if Hindu youth…dont know of our history and our exploits…our valour..what we had and have achieved. Thats annoying, becuase in the absense of such knowledge, their is a lack of true pride…and that when you get people like Ravi Sharma insisting that we were “saved” by Sikhs. Ravi…do you have any idea how lame you sound?
I had a Khalistani wannabe aquaintance once who used to bring in pictures of Khalistani rallies in the UK….seriously……there are a MASSIVE number of Sikhs who HATE Hindus and India. Trust me. At university when it was the world cup…the Sikhs would watch India……but only care about the SIKH players. Some of them would even only watch the Sikh players (and perhaps tendulkar) and leave after the Sikh player got out. So Ravi..if I was you, I wouldnt overestimate the Sikh “pyaar” for their hindu brethren. I do believe that Hindus and Sikhs are close..more so than any other two sets of religions…but I also bear witness to their superiority complex….and our own Hindu inferiority complex…and it boils down to skewed historical knowledge which is focused purely on Sikh exploits. Im sure youre aware that most modern history..esp regarding India and its religions is composed of BRITISH historical perspectives. This basically means that anyone that the British didnt like, they didnt really talk about favourably. Sikhs were seen as loyal..as were the Nepalese (Gurkha - who are btw HINDU WARRIORS)…Marathas military prowess..even Rajput prowess seems to have been conveniently ignored. Also what it funny is that South Indians or those of the low lying central plains were apparently viewed by the British as being non martial DESPITE the fact that some of the biggest and most powerful kingdoms Bharat has ever seen were based in these areas…and also the fact that a MASSIVE array of martial arts were developed and indigenous to SOUTH INDIAN areas…thus…this kind of debunks the whole bullshit martial races theory purported by the Brits).
Of course yuo think Sikhs saved us….youve probably been fed a diet of British historical propoganda - one that was designed to subjugate Hindus and Hinduism and “big up” anyone that helped them.
July 17th, 2007 at 8:38 pm
DB8’s hit the nail square on the head
The British as a colonising force saw the Hindu backbone of Bharat as the key obstacle to controlling it, this eternal dharma of the land united such externally diverse groups such as Tamils , Assamese, Kashmiris etc…by empowering and meddling in the affairs of certain groups they suceeded in dividing and fragmenting the people of the land thereby weaking it from within. Witness the dealings with the Muslim League, the Nawabs when they arrived as the East India company, with the Sikhs (Anandpur act, creation of teh Singh Sabha etc…) This brand of politics is still at work in India! See the article on the Gujjars! Jains have financial incentives to diassociate themsleves too. You are better off not being a Hindu in India, bottom line. Thats the state of affairs.
I’ve said this before, all the undeniably great stuff emanating from Sanathan Dharma is generally ascribed to either India, Buddhism,
Jainism, Sikhism and the distorted backward cr*p linked to Hinduism (Sati etc..). The media do it all the time!
On another note, whatever exploits the sikhs have done is passed on and remembered with pride,and so they should too ! Every sikh knows who Bhagat Singh is . How many Hindus know Bhagat Singhs revolutionary contemporaries and even his leader namely Sukhdev, Rajguru and Chandrasekhar Azad.
Wake up and dont really on textbooks to give you the truth on a plate. You have to be prepared to dig and question.
July 17th, 2007 at 8:52 pm
well check out this site, from british sikhs
http://sarabhapanjab.blogspot.com/
July 17th, 2007 at 9:48 pm
I am in favour of proactive debate, however, please bear in mind that there are no winners or loosers. There is only loss of gain to our Dharma. Given this, I would be greatful if you would all bear in mind the need for progress of Dharma before posting your opinion.
Also, there are a lot of newcomers to this website and we have to encourage them to take part and voice their opinions also. So please keep personal attacks and bad language outside of this forum - I’d like to think that at the end of this depate I will be in a position to make up my mind as to whether the Sikh community is with us.
July 17th, 2007 at 11:29 pm
db8, Some very good points.See alot of this is just plain common sense.If Hindus were so weak then how comes the whole of India is still majority Hindu.Well the answer through pure logic will tell you that either the invading forces just came to India on holiday for 800 hundred years to admire the country and people or the Hindus fought back.Well we all no apart from Ravi Sharma what the answer is to that.See the problem lies in with Hindus themselves who are not aware of their own history .They remember the swamis and sadhus but never the warriors who protected Hinduism.Every Hindu temple along with the great sages and gurus should also have pictures of the warriors for a start.With the Sikhs all I ever hear is that we saved you and the whole of India and thats why we’re different and thats what all their hate about us is based on.
July 18th, 2007 at 1:18 am
Sikhs are beyond “India”…Sikh have a higher aim (beyond this world)… Some of you Hindus are so bent on classifying Sikhs as Hindus….so if every Sikh started referring to themselves as “Hindu”, what difference would that make? If there were 30 million more “Hindus” on the 6 billion people planet, then what?
Sikhs believe that your practices (rituals and idol/animal worship) are wrong, unnecessary, false, gross (the monkeys, rats, cows ect.) bowing down to rocks….diry, nasty stuff….trying to feed food to idols and pictures…that is why Sikhs usually make fun of Hindus… we even took your word for brother “baiyaa” and turning it into a derogatory slur…classic…we might not say it to your faces but we make fun of all of the weird stuff you Hindus do and the crazy ideas you come up with…like Sikhs are Hindus…haha…that was settled over 500 years ago
July 18th, 2007 at 3:20 am
The extremists on all sides are the ones usually with little or no intelligence and who use the fist before the brain. They should be sidelined before we can have productive talks with any peoples of the world who have geo-political or theological diffences.
When we talk abt self determination that some Sikhs want from India it is based on just grievences they have faced since 1947 before that they ruled large parts of Punjab and other regional lands under the Sikh empire.
India was never one country but a land mass of different kingdoms from the borders of afghanistan to china these kingdoms were sovereign states int their own rights, had their own rulers, their own armies,etc.
So we must not forget that when Sikh seperatists talk about independance for Khalistan it is from historical perspective too let alone the greivences of 1984 where their holiest shrine was attacked, their historial documents burnt to ashes or looted by Indian army, their historical buildings of sovereignty destoryed, countless innocent civilian worshippers brutally murdered. And when Sikhs justly retaliated against the aggressor, the one who ordered the attack (indira gandhi). Innocent Sikh civilians were brutally singled out in New Delhi leading to congress terrorist pary mobs murdered, raping leaving 3,000+ dead in just 3 days.
This my friends was an act of state scationed terrorism. Any wonder many Sikhs in india then turned to seperatist militantancy against an oppressive congress party led state?
July 18th, 2007 at 8:41 am
a few of you have made jokes on langer - Langer is free food distributed for common folk…
This was begun by Guru Amar Das, he requested that all be allowed into the gurudwaras of any faith and caste….. emperor Akbar came to his court and was also asked to sit on the floor and eat langer…. he refused…. guruji refused to see him….So Akbar sat shoulder to shoulder with different castes, rich poor, males females and eat the Guru langer. This shows it is simple act of humanity ..the langer is ‘free food ‘ as you put it, but pls respect this !!!!
When we have free food we all sit equally and show respect for our Guruji……..
its a simple act of service….. TO FEED SOMEONE YOU DON’T KNOW IS THE KINDEST ACT OF FAITH.
Ravi
July 18th, 2007 at 9:44 am
The Guru Granth Sahib contains around 15,028 of references to Hindu concepts and the names of Hindu gods.
A near-exact count is given in K.P. Agrawala: Adi Shrî Gurû Granth Sâhib kî Mahimâ (Hindi: “The greatness of the original sacred Guru scripture”), p.2, and in Ram Swarup: “Hindu roots of Sikhism”, Indian Express,
The name of the Hindu god Shri Ram, is recited 2,400 times, (the gods name whose constant repetition leads to salvation).
Hari (Vishnu) over 8,300 times, 630 times by Guru Nanak alone,
Parabrahman, 550 times, Omkara, (the primeval sound of OM) 400 times.
Please note the names of countless other Hindu gods are also mentioned and are one and the same.
In contrast the name Mohammed is never mentioned and the name allah is used but a couple of times, merely as an example. It is interesting to note that the Granth itself contains banis from seven of the sikh gurus, two muslim Sufis, but EIGHTEEN Hindu saints and pandits.
The religious source of Sikhism is Hinduism, Sikhism is a tradition developed within Hinduism. Guru Granth Sahib reflect Vedantic philosophy, the Vedanta of Rishi Vedvyas who wrote the Mahabharat. The Japji Sahib is based on Upanishads.
Summary :
IN 1500 , Guru Nanak Dev Ji ( 1469-1538 ad.), went to bathe in a stream and was missing for three days.His first statement when he came out was “neti, neti ” (neither here, nor there from the Upanishads-Vedas) na koi hindu, na koi turkh, kudrat keh hain sab bandey”.
…three days is a short time if you want to free yourself from acquired physics and start a new religion… the insight with which he came back with after three days retreat, as quoted by Khushwant Singh was entirely within Hindu tradition:
” their is no muslim, no hindu” it does not mean that I Nanak, am neither hindu or muslim, it means that the self ( atma , timeless indweller, the object of this mystical experience) is beyond worldly divisions….
”the self is neither black nor white, neither hindu nor muslim, neither this nor that : neti, neti ,” is the Upanishadic phrase from the Vedas, is as typically Hindu as you can get’’
Guru Nanak Dev Ji, continued the bhakti methods of the saints before him, starting with the oral repetition of the name “Rama Nama’
If Guru Nanak Dev Ji’s discovery ” neither hindu nor muslim” had meant a positive conclusion, wouldn’t he have said: “neither Hindu, nor Muslim , sab Sikh?
It is strange that the statement used by many to say, he founded a new religion does not even mention this new religion?
Ek Om Kar, was already there in the Vedas - Hindu text, it is still there today. Ek = single OM = supreme being KAR= sound. Guru Nanak merely emphasised that particular path. Ek Om Kar is originally a Hindu concept. some Sikh separatists like to say EK ‘ON’KAR! what does ‘on’ mean?
Guru Angad was a devoted worshipper of the Goddess Durga. Every year he used to lead a group of devotees from Khadur Sahib, where he had settled, to the temple of Jwalamukhi in the lower Himalayas. In 1532 ad he met Guru Nanak at Kartarpur (pakistan) on his way to Jwalamukhi and became his disciple. Guru Nanak was most impressed with the devotion and selfless services of Lehna, that he proclaimed him as his successor guru in ad1539. As Nanak had previously embraced him, and because of the touch with his body e.g. “ang”, he changed the name of Lehna to Angad, Guru Angad made Khadur sahib his headquarters. Humayun, the Mughal emperor called on him here and paid him homage.
Sikhs were always known as a sect of Hinduism, which is why they continued celebrating traditional Hindu festivals such as Rakhri, Diwali, Lohri, Vaisakhi, Dusshera and Holi. Unlike the Hindus who became known as muslims and started celebrating muslim festivals. If indeed the Gurus wanted to create a new religion, would they not have created religious festivals to coincide and mark this new religions separate?
The fourth guru, Ram Das (1574-1581a.d ), excavated a tank which subsequently became known as Amritsar (pool of nectar) and gave its name to the city that grew around it. in due course, a splendid edifice, Har-mandir (temple of Hari-Vishnu), rose in the middle of this tank and became the supreme centre of the sikh sect of hinduism.
Hindus and the Hindus who later became known as Sikhs, would worship together at Hari(Vishnu)-mandir Sahib, aptly named by the fourth guru Ram Dass, it housed murtis of Lord Shiva, Lord Vishnu and the 6th Guru Harigobind until 1906 and is today known as the golden temple.
Sumer Singh Chauhan in his essay on the common heritage of the sikhs and hindus - divide & conquer - states:
“many scholars have stated that the granth contains specific references to hindu gods such as Rama and Krishna.
The gurudwaras, or sikh temples, have always been decorated with pictures of Hindu Gods, and both Devtas and Devis.
The first desecration of these pictures and Murtis was in 1906 at Harmandir, and this was the first action taken by separatist sikhs, heavily influences by British administrators such as Max Arthur Macauliffe and Wilheim Leitner (who invented the name Singh Sabha).
Until 1906 there remained life size Murtis of both Lord Hari ( Vishnu) and the 6th Guru Harigovind
Other gurudwaras also had them removed as recently as 1984, this occurred after the attack on the golden temple. this was not an attack on religion but was justified for reasons of national security.
IF THE GURUS DIDNT WANT MURTIS OF HINDU GODS IN THE
HAR(VISHNU) MANDIR, WOULDNT THEY HAVE SAID SO DURING THEIR LIFETIMES INSTEAD OF IT HAPPENING IN 1906 UNDER THE SAY SO OF THE BRITS???
Guru Govind passed on in 1708, over 200 years after his passing the Singh Sabha suddenly decide to remove these murtis??
———
All ten Gurus marriages were conducted by Hindu pandits and they were married within Hindu rituals, as were other Sikhs until the Anand Karaj Act was passed in 1909.
The Laava written by the 4th Guru Ram Dass were about mans spiritual union wiv god, which can never be BROKEN, not about a union between man and woman!
If the Sikh gurus all had Hindu weddings why, 200 years after the passing of the last Sikh Guru, Guru Govind Singh in 1708, was the ANAND KARAJ ACT passed in 1909?
Surely if the Gurus wanted Sikhs to have seperate weddings they would have said so in theri own lifetimes
——
Some closed minded bigots refer to Hindus as Idol worshippers, but Idol worshiping is truly something that we do not do, we worship with great vigor, with heart and soul.
Idol-worshipping is an offensive and derogatory term used by the British during the British Raj through shear ignorance to degrade our ancient religion. We use Murtis to help us worship we do not specifically worship these images, we use these as focal points to help us worship god
July 18th, 2007 at 9:46 am
Im sick of hearing Sikhs blame HINDUS for 1984, and forget how it was US that helped them in DELHI when they were under attack.
Prime minister India Ghandi married to a Parsi Feroze Ghandi, wasnt a practising Hindu
President Zial Singh - keshdari Singh approved the order to attack, was A TURBAN WEARING SIKH
General Kuldeep Singh Brar, who led the attack was a JATT SIKH?
Kps Gill, KILLED THE TERRORISTS- JATT SIKH?
July 18th, 2007 at 12:12 pm
“we make fun of all of the weird stuff you Hindus do”
Actually fanning a book and putting it to sleep and then waking it up is very normal indeed and I’m sure the rest of the world will find it normal as well and its no wonder everyone everywhere is doing it..
July 18th, 2007 at 12:15 pm
“Sikhs usually make fun of Hindus…”
Well thats upto you but we know in reality right or wrong that there are more jokes about Sikhs then any Hindu that most people laugh at.( or Sikhs wouldn’t be complaining about it )So the jokes really on you.
July 18th, 2007 at 12:19 pm
Harvi Singh,
Some of the points you have made have been written in the article but whats you view to all the thousands of Hindus that were taken off buses in Punjab and killed by Sikh extremists because I never ever hear that from Sikhs but you will hear Hindus also highlighting to wrongs against Sikhs example being this artcle.
July 18th, 2007 at 12:21 pm
“a few of you have made jokes on langer - Langer is free food distributed for common folk…”
Ravi Sharma, No one was making joke out of langer but were making jokes out of you which you personally do a good job yourself without our help.
July 18th, 2007 at 1:41 pm
pls ignorant types pls do not come onto this discussion as it will make sense to you……
I have forgiven the ignorant for their comments……… may gurujis bless you all…….
hare krishna
July 18th, 2007 at 2:36 pm
well keep