1984 & the Future of Hindu-Sikh Relations
As I hit young adulthood, many of my friends were Sikhs. Most of them were much more into politics than the Hindus I knew, and it was hanging around with them that I was first made aware of the deep tensions that existed between the various religious communities of the world. While most Sikhs I knew generally talked of Hindus and Sikhs as having a close historical kinship, there were many bones of contention which were often brought up – about events that occurred before I was even born. The most common of these gripes was the treatment of Sikhs by the Indian government (which they wrongly blamed on Hindus at large) in the year 1984. Coupled with this was…
July 8th, 2007 at 10:50 pm
Was there need particular need to involve RSS in your article?
Incase you were not aware RSS aknowledges Sikhism as an independent religion which stems from Hinduism, and works to promote unity between the two religions.
July 9th, 2007 at 9:44 am
Bansri, no offence but you have pure wool over your eyes. As you should know, the current RSS Chief is Sudarshan. Type in “Sudarshan Sikhs are Hindus” into Google, and you will see many “All Sikhs are Hindus” statements coming from the knickerwallah chief.
July 9th, 2007 at 11:36 am
Dangerous,
Whats wrong in saying all Sikhs are Hindus? ‘Hinduism’ has millions of branches/philosophies and the word itself is an umberella term coined by parsis to understand the composite culture of India. Rather than every fringe group calling themselves as ‘independent of hinduism’ and proactively working towards segregation, they should first learn about their roots and unite under the ‘hindu’ umberella - which literally provides infinite freedom.
The first sikh guru WAS INDEED a ‘Hindu’, just like Gautama Siddharth was a ‘Hindu’ and so is Sri Sri, Mata Amritanandamayi, Vivekananda, Rama Krishna etc. Their followers would do more justice to their Master’s teachings by reognizing their rooots and adhering to the spirit the teachings [DERIVED from the ocean called ‘Hinduism’] - staying united rather than segregating with the fear of ‘losing identity’!!
July 9th, 2007 at 12:47 pm
“Whats wrong in saying all Sikhs are Hindus?”
What’s wrong is that Sikhs do not want to be called Hindus, understood?
“The first sikh guru WAS INDEED a ‘Hindu’”
Not what Sikhs believe
“Their followers would do more justice to their Master’s teachings by reognizing their rooots and adhering to the spirit the teachings [DERIVED from the ocean called ‘Hinduism’] - staying united rather than segregating with the fear of ‘losing identity’!! ”
If you wan to then become a practicing Sikh and see if you can change their direction.
As a Hindu it doesn’t concern me what Sikhs think of themselves as but when Hindus go out of their way to prove that they are Hindu it makes Hindus look like total buffoons.
July 9th, 2007 at 1:32 pm
very interesting article i have come across similar situations such as you have decribed regarding sikh freinds about the subject khalistan and due to lack of knowledge on the subject i failed to look at both sides of the arguement upon the matter. I have been to discussion classes in the uk within gudwaras where hatred and discrimination is preached against religions such as muslims and hindus and being a hindu myself i was shocked how many sikhs adopted these ludacris ideas, althought i also learned peoples point of view on how corrupt the indian goverment has been in the past. One point this article points out that is true each religion should look back and examine its history thoroughly and try to make the relationships between religions less hostile and more equal.
July 9th, 2007 at 3:35 pm
Its good that Khalistan never prevailed but is there still extremists who feel that it is on the agenda.However India being a great pluralistic country forgets old harms easily let alone pursue a continuos course of seoaration. Sikhs are born of Hinduism and just because thier territory is all farm land and thier elders sought to call themselves Panjabis and started the Sikh Religion. The word Guru is used to mean to follow a leader who is all powerful and knowledgeable one who is looked upon for guidance. There is no difference in Indians /Panjabis or Hindus and Sikhs. Let this matter be a chronological part of developmental History in Indian maturity. The Pakistan issue is all Muslim Hindu separation and all too extremely politically religious.Hostility breeds segregation, whereas among Hindus and Sikhs assimilation is all too prevalent because no one finds a difference between the two. Let History judge and let it remain in its place do not bring this up to agitate this enmity when there is none.
morganlal
July 9th, 2007 at 10:29 pm
Harish…couldnt agree with you more…
I HATE it when Hindus bend over backwards to make out as if Sikhs are Hindus. The Sikhs that DO consider that to be the case..fair enough…the ones that dont…leave them to it!..who cares! We are a great people with an amazing history replete with stories of heroism, dedication, religiousity, compassion…we have had some of the greatest warriors, fighters the world has ever seen..one of the most illustrious and beautiful cultures in the world…why we feel the need to constantly lick ass is beyond me..
July 9th, 2007 at 11:24 pm
“Whats wrong in saying all Sikhs are Hindus?”
Whats wrong is that they dont want to be hindus, if that fact was pummelled into your brain a million times, you still wouldn’t get it .
July 10th, 2007 at 12:49 pm
sikhs are very similair in their views of faith.
The follow all birth and death rites of hindus, celebrate diwali, holi and full moons like hindus do. prasad is given in temples and gurudwaras after being offered to God. Pooja is done in gurudwaras and also ardas, there are so many other similiar things and all unite our faiths ……
we are all briothers and sisters.
waheguru, har ki bani
jai krishan
July 10th, 2007 at 12:49 pm
In the Indian Constitution the Sikhs are lumped together with Hindus, Jains and Budhists. They now appear to shun their Hindu roots and seems to want to be recognised as a seprate Sikh Nation and possibly given a seprate sikh nation state. Sikh are a volatile minority and should be handled with care. Most Sikhs especially the urban type are nationalists in outlook and are perhaps still considere themselves as a part of the mainstream Hindu rashtra.but some rural sikhs harbour some subdued sepratists ambitions.which thanks to Pakistan, now and again raises its head The slightest disturbance in Punjab starts to create ripples in the UK and Canada. Recently a meeting of some Sikhs in Brimigham which was attended by Lord Nazir Ahmed and another British MP of Pakistani origin passed a resolution in favour of Khalistan as the Sikh considered India to be a failed state. wasconsidered that India wasconsidered a failed state,
July 10th, 2007 at 12:58 pm
The Sikh are an enterprising people.They are hard working and are generally quite well off. They form about two per cent of the total Indian population They are spread all over India and some forty percent live out of Punjab. They have some very important places in the rest of India. There is no political, racial or social discrimination against them. Their representation is about 14 per cent in the Army alone
July 10th, 2007 at 1:41 pm
I am sorry the person that worte this does not kow what happened in full detail. next time ask people that kkow what they are talking about and i am UPSET THAT the full informmaton is not haer and sikhs are not hindus we got hour own ID
July 10th, 2007 at 2:01 pm
Hinduism and Sikhism complement one another….. seva is emphasised and pray……..both faiths ask for humility …good hindus and sikhs are veggies….. Gurur granth sahib calls on Lord Krishna , Shiva , Brahma and vishnu in prays …..both Gita and bani look at false gods and false demigods. gita and bani both ask devotees to worship with full devotion ….to release from materialistic attachement and devote to bhakti…… Guru Granth ji is modern Gita ….. So many hyms are dedicated to Hindu gods and Govinda, hari, ram and gopala are mentioned at least one hundred times in Granth refering to our Lord. guru nanak saw that Hindus were coming away from the true path of Hinduism and therefore reformed Hindu faith ….. what are the differences between sikhs and hindus ,,,,,,there are none if you look at the religion itself…
Ravi
July 10th, 2007 at 2:09 pm
ravi sharma don’t u have anything better to do than grovelling all day?
listen mate, sikhs don’t want to be called Hindus and they think they are a separate religion, can’t you get that through your thick head?
some Hindus seem to have an inferiority complex about sikhs, that’s why they repeatedly talk about them being Hindus, god save Hindus with jokers like these representing our community.
July 10th, 2007 at 2:23 pm
“i am UPSET THAT the full informmaton is not haer ”
So what is that information.Far as what I read the article is well balanced.
“sikhs are not hindus we got hour own ID ”
Yeh but doesn’t the article in the last paragraph point in that direction?
July 10th, 2007 at 3:01 pm
Harish duggrila …. i feel you are wrong …good sikhs will say that they are nether hindu nor muslim nor sikh….they are disciples of the true pathway ……. sikhism means to learn …thats what sikhs do the whole time …they are not to question muslim or hindu , they are live a rightous life of good and seva…..
A sikh is against all paap …bad things , no sikh will fight on grounds of hindu faith or belief….. Go to Patna gurudwara dedicated to Guru Govind singhji last guru….they have icons , and images of him , they perform Pooja with divas and incense….. the bani is Gita and Koran …….The bani is a true pathway …pls read and understand it harish only then will you realise what a true sikh follows…..by wearing a turban and beard you don’t become a Sikh….. Nishkam seva karo…service without reward….wand chako ..serve others….naam simaran …chant the lords name and love everyone …..this is hindu and sikh………
The bani (guru granth sahib ) teaches a path of self realisation …..whether thats through Ram , Allah or Nanak the bani says just serve others and submit to your Lord……….
Sikhism is reformed Hinduism like it or not …..pls can we have a sikh scholar to discuss this point….sorry harish you not that level//////
sikhism is a path that anyone can follow……. not all sikhs follow the path of Sikhism !!!!!!!!
ravi
July 10th, 2007 at 7:43 pm
mate i know more about sikhism than a confused soul like you does, all that trying to convince Sikhs are Hindus won’t get u nowhere with sikhs.
i guess some Hindus r just born losers and bound to grovel all their life.
this should be a lesson to all Hindus, raise your kids as proper Hindus, otherwise they will end up as beggars and grovellers to people who dont like them.
July 11th, 2007 at 7:43 am
harish duggirala you have made not one point with any reference to scriptures….. you have spoke put of your behind …… pls use some quotes or points don’t just waffle………
Your are telegu…….south Indian Hinduism is very different from North Hindu and sikhism……..Dravidian styles are differetn in traditions and worship….
If you look at south hindu worship it is like a differetn religion…archaras , abheshekams , maha abhsekaham s and worship of planets is unheard of in north hindu vaishnava ……
South Indians have different gods( Murugan, balaji, katikaya , bachara devi to name a few……. Priests are used to speak to gods and potray messages, sanctorum of shrines are only for priests …… non hindus are not allowed into many shrines
Hinduism is very open …….even to form of south Hindu worship which is foreign to me ……i go to Gurudwara and understand Gurmukhi worship and pray ……. i am hindu but not as narrow minded as you ……\
Jai nanak dev ji
jai murugan jai
ravi
July 11th, 2007 at 5:30 pm
“Your are telegu…….south Indian Hinduism is very different from North Hindu and sikhism……..Dravidian styles are differetn in traditions and worship….
If you look at south hindu worship it is like a differetn religion…archaras , abheshekams , maha abhsekaham s and worship of planets is unheard of in north hindu vaishnava ……
South Indians have different gods( Murugan, balaji, katikaya , bachara devi to name a few……. Priests are used to speak to gods and potray messages, sanctorum of shrines are only for priests …… non hindus are not allowed into many shrines
Hinduism is very open …….even to form of south Hindu worship which is foreign to me ……i go to Gurudwara and understand Gurmukhi worship and pray ……. i am hindu but not as narrow minded as you ”
Mr Ravi, here you are pointing out difference between southindian form of worship and North Indian, whatta BS, Maan first understand agamas and then talk.
But you don’t find any difference between sikhism and Hinduism. why????
Just arguing for the sake of argument will not lead you anywhere,
Any way we have you as a good example of a royal jester.
Salutations to you
July 11th, 2007 at 9:52 pm
“harish duggirala you have made not one point with any reference to scriptures….. you have spoke put of your behind …… pls use some quotes or points don’t just waffle………”
ya like you quoted scripture so far!!!
practice what u preach.
“Your are telegu…….south Indian Hinduism is very different from North Hindu and sikhism……..Dravidian styles are differetn in traditions and worship….”
what did i tell u people, we have morons here who have been brainwashed with nonsense, the fact is most North Hindus I know do not identify with Sikhism and would feel far more closer in a South Indian Hindu temple.
“South Indians have different gods( Murugan, balaji, katikaya , bachara devi to name a few……. Priests are used to speak to gods and potray messages, sanctorum of shrines are only for priests …… non hindus are not allowed into many shrines ”
You are an idiot, Murugan is a Hindu deity not a “South Indian” or “North Indian” deity, his other name is Karthikeya and he is mentioned in Mahabharata, if you read a bit of scripture then you would stop farting gas.
Non Hindus are also not allowed into Puri Jagannath Mandir in Orissa, I would like you to tell me since when exactly has Orissa become South India?
“Hinduism is very open …….even to form of south Hindu worship which is foreign to me ……i go to Gurudwara and understand Gurmukhi worship and pray ……. i am hindu but not as narrow minded as you”
Listen you moron, what u do is not our business, u can go worship at a mosque for all we care, the simple fact is that a majority of sikhs don’t want to be called Hindus.
If u like them so much then take Amrit and join the Khalsa, not give empty lectures and spew nonsense about “North Indian Hinduism” and “South Indian Hinduism”.
This is what happens if u raise ur kids as clueless people, soon some moron will start claiming that he goes to his local mosque and those who don’t are “narrow minded”.
The reality is that they hate morons like you who are bent upon grovelling before them and insisting that they are Hindus.
July 12th, 2007 at 12:32 am
By the way there is no such thing as “Gurmukhi worship”, Gurmukhi is a script used to write Punjabi you clown.
July 12th, 2007 at 10:21 pm
harish, dont waste your energy,
what can you expect from a dimwit moron who thinks the world is held up by elephants or something…
July 13th, 2007 at 5:34 pm
please guys. can we not fight amongst ourselves. we need to be strong and united. this discussion has turned into something else. BTW, this article has been posted on some of the sikh sites too. for their point of view, read this:
http://www.tapoban.org/phorum/read.php?f=1&i=118047&t=118047
some moron (named SomeSingh) said this:
“there was a survey some time ago of the top 400 university students in india. they were asked who their most admired person was. in order - gandhi, nehru, hitler.
yep, adolf hitler came in #3. it’s no big surprise hindu newspapers resort to soo much propaganda.”
sounds like khalistani propaganda to me. has anyone heard of this survey?
July 14th, 2007 at 3:28 pm
i wonder why this nut loser ravi sharma didn’t reply. maybe because he got severely exposed for not even knowing what gurmukhi is.
ravi sharma i dont think you go to gurudwara for any spiritual upliftment.
you’re a shameless fool who goes for langar.
no wonder you like them so much.
btw, look up bhakti movement u loser. the “oh so different” “southern” hinduism movement that affected whole of india, even nanak got his inspiration from this movement from the “southern hinduism”.
one more thing ravi sharma, i want you to go to a gurudwara and shout loudly “SIKHS ARE HINDUS”.
you will get your answer. shameless clown. keep licking their feet, go see how they talk about hindus in their forums. last thing we need is jokers like you who create divisions within hindu society and then suck up to people who abhor our faith.
July 15th, 2007 at 8:33 pm
The Sikh community is a tiny minority, which is a part of the Hindu Commonwealth. Whether they want a seperate identity or not is unimportant. What is more important is that there is unity amongs Hindus and taking the above comments as a small example, I believe this is our greatest weakness!
There has been very little dialogue between the Hindu youth until recently and as a result young Hindus have formed their opinion based on what they learn from the mass media.
This is why there are so many differing opinions. This website, as well as the many other Hindu forums which exist today, will help in uniting the Hindu Voice.
I sincerely wish that we unite in thought and opinion so that we can portray a strong presence in the world. The need for Hindu unity is greater than ever.
Hindus must unite!
July 16th, 2007 at 10:14 am
gurus fought for hinduism …
guru teg bahadur ji stopped brahamins being circumstised … he stopped beef being put into prashaad, veiling of hindu women and hindu men being taxed ……..
guruji sacrificed his own life for the hindu faith !!!!!!!!! he wanted no brahmin to ever halal his own cattle ….he wanted no hindu women to have her sisters as her husbands wives……
Guru ji martyred himself ……. all guru’s sacrified thier lives for hindu faith……… Aurengzeb would of made a good muslim of you harish.
ravi
July 16th, 2007 at 10:18 am
guru teg bahadur ji stopped circumstision of hindu brahmins , he stopped beef being put into prashaad, he stopped hindu women being veiled and saved hindu faith….aurenzeb would of made a good muslim of harish….
All guru’s defended hindu faith and were murdered by moguls…..they sacrified thier lives for hindu faith,.,,,,,,,heads were chopped and finger cut off…..buried alive…..all so that you may not be circumstised….
ravi
July 16th, 2007 at 10:23 am
sorry harish your lungi would not of helped you when you are being circumstised…… even eelam shop can’t help you against the muslim world and tyrants……….
We hindus with are dhotis and lungis…….look to sikhs with respect ….they are brothers that upheld our faith with dignity and respect!!!!!!!!
jai guru gobind
jai sri krishna
July 16th, 2007 at 1:17 pm
ravi sharma looks like u lost the plot so ur nonsensical rant, tegh bahadur never saved Hindus and he stopped nothing, he was martyred alright but that didn’t stop anything you idiot, Hindus were still persecuted until the Marathas broke the Mughals, and what a joker you r, all the Gurus sacrificed themselves for Hindus, lol is that why the last Guru reached a compromise with Mughals and received land in Nanded?
face it u don’t know any history nor any clue of what u r ranting about, i think u need to go back onto ur medication now.
“sorry harish your lungi would not of helped you when you are being circumstised…… even eelam shop can’t help you against the muslim world and tyrants……….
We hindus with are dhotis and lungis…….look to sikhs with respect ….they are brothers that upheld our faith with dignity and respect!!!!!!!!”
hahahahahaha, the lungi wearing LTTE cadre would make you wet your pants mate, u prob dress up like some wannabe gora in a suite and tie, that’s why u have such an inferiority complex about lungi and dhoti.
by the way mate, since u r so ignorant, the village dress worn in Punjab by sikhs is none other than lungi itself lol.
as for looking to sikhs with respect, ya right, they couldn’t even get to Delhi while the Marathas smashed up the Mughals and were ruling the largest area in Bharat till british came over (wonder why that is?)
in conclusion u r a joke who has no grasp of history and makes ur living by gorging on free langar at ur gurudwara as you’re so cheap to buy food at your local supermarket instead.
July 16th, 2007 at 1:17 pm
Ravi Sharma you prove you believe in popular myths.You think before a group of Punjabi Hindus became Sikhs that Hindus before that weren’t defending their lands and religion by outsiders 800 hundred years before ? It shows when Hindus have no knowledge of their own history they become boot lickers.
July 16th, 2007 at 2:29 pm
shut ur face……… guruji’s faced mogul oppression with the sword…. hindus would not fight because of dharma and ahimsa …
yes marathas fought …they were shivites …they fought for their own ….. gurujis fought for hindu’s who were oppressed under Muslim rule…..
South iIndian brahmins were persecuted with mass circumstisions , they were asked to put their murti’s into their own havans and made to do muslim ablutions with urine…….
this was happening to south Indians especially telugu and kannada speaking peoples …… Christians also converted half the populations through submission and sword…… British bought english to south india and it still dominates all corners of the tamil people …….
Sikhs who follow granth are real people with spiritual path….. they seek good service for god, chant name of god and serve others…..
Wahiguru ji ka kalsa
Jai govinda
jai mata ki
July 16th, 2007 at 2:47 pm
Dev get a life…… you would not even be here if sikhs did not defend Hindu faith…..
You would be facing Mecca and praying….. Circumstision would be compulsary in India and abroad ….Muslim rule took the world by storm , it went through all of Asia and North africa, all of middle east and then came to india like a storm ……. half the world at this point was at the clutches of Islam …..Mecca had 101 deities that were smashed and kabba put ontop…… all of Middle east prayed to these dieites until islam came ……
101 idols were shivite lingams and brahma statues these smashed by mohammed prophet and mecca as we know now was established.
There wass no stopping the Islam …..although hindus and sikhs did stop the mass conversions ….many smaller religions were wiped out …… Zorastrians were nearly all killed … Bahai’s were almost eradicated ….. even smaller islamic cults were forbidden…… (Alevis, sufis, Ismaelis and yalizis)
Please respect our history donn’t mock it…..
ravi
July 16th, 2007 at 2:54 pm
ravi sharma , You’re a total nutcase and total extremist.You hate muslims and you hate Christians but you even hate other Hindus who dont believe in your fiction.If you cant provide Historical facts to back your claims then you need to seriously block your behind because it talks a lot of S**t.
July 16th, 2007 at 2:59 pm
“shut ur face……… guruji’s faced mogul oppression with the sword…. hindus would not fight because of dharma and ahimsa …”
i think u ate too much dal at the gurudwara and it’s coming out as farts from ur mouth, so i think u shud shut it.
Yea righttttttttttttt, maybe that’s why gobind singh was given land by Mughals in Nanded lol.
Hindus didn’t fight cuz of “dharma” and “ahimsa” lol, I wonder who people like Maharana Hammir, Maharana Kumbha, Maharana Pratap and all were.
idiot learn some history before you rant.
“yes marathas fought …they were shivites …they fought for their own ….. gurujis fought for hindu’s who were oppressed under Muslim rule….”
you are an idiot, Marathas fought for Hindus while gobind singh’s fight had nothing at all to do with Hindus.
“South iIndian brahmins were persecuted with mass circumstisions , they were asked to put their murti’s into their own havans and made to do muslim ablutions with urine…….”
hehehehe and north indian brahmins weren’t?
“this was happening to south Indians especially telugu and kannada speaking peoples …… Christians also converted half the populations through submission and sword…… British bought english to south india and it still dominates all corners of the tamil people …….”
idiot, the christian population even to this day is nowhere near half in any of the southern states, British bought english to all of bharat u moron not just dakshin bharat.
“Sikhs who follow granth are real people with spiritual path….. they seek good service for god, chant name of god and serve others…..”
ya and i should care why?
you are some wannabe gora loser who licks to kiss sikh ass, but too bad for u the majority of Hindus are unlike u, anyway karma is a biatch and it will catch up with u in the form of some lungi wearing former ltte cadre after which u have to go hide in the gurudwara permanently.
July 16th, 2007 at 2:59 pm
Harish, This Ravi Sharma is a typical miser going for his free food everynight at the gurudwara.I bet when they see him coming they must be saying to each other here comes that kongoose ‘Bhaman’ for his free food.
July 16th, 2007 at 8:13 pm
hang on…….i think we are putting too much emphasis on the fact that ravi sharma is a hindu. what if he isn’t? after all, how hard it is to mask one’s identity on the internet?
July 17th, 2007 at 3:15 am
ravi sharma is a sikh extremist, its pretty obvious.
He’s trying really hard to prove that hindus didn’t do any fighting.
ravi sharma why don’t you answer us why MARATHAS HAD LARGEST TERRITORY IN BHARAT?
MARATHAS FOUGHT FOR ALL HINDUS. SHIVAJI SAID HE WANTED HINDAVI SWARAJYA. A HINDU NATION FOR ALL. MARATHAS CONQUERED ALL THE WAY FROM TANJAVUR TO NORTHERN FRINGES OF BHARAT.
WHILE GURU GOBIND SINGH REACHED TO A COMPROMISE WITH MUGHALS AND GOT LAND IN NANDED, MARATHA HINDUS DEFEATED MUGHALS AND BROKE THEIR BACK.
GO READ ZAFARNAMA, WHERE GOBIND SINGH HAPPILY TALKS ABOUT HOW HE BROKE HINDU MURTIS OF HINDU HILL RAJAS.
HERE ARE SOME HINDU WARRIOS WHO FOUGHT FOR THE PEOPLE -
1) Prtihviraj Chauhan
2) Hammir Deo Chauhan
3) Maharana Hammir
4) Maharana Kumbha
5) Maharana Pratap Singh
6) Lachit Borphukhan
7) Durgadas Rathore
8) Sri Krishna Deva Raya
9) Chhatrasal Bundela
10) Gokul Singh Jat
11) Rajaram Jat
12) Maharaja Surajmal
13) Lalitaditya Muktapida
14) Jaimal & Patta
15) Kumara Kampana
16) Vema Reddy
17) Prolaya Nayaka
18) Kapayya Nayaka
19) Harihara Raya
20) Bukka Raya
ravi sharma, hindus have had plenty of great warriors to defend their faith and prevent us from being converted.
July 17th, 2007 at 1:01 pm
In true Hindu dharma style i forgive you all……
my pathway teaches to enlight not cast darkness….. i am angry at you but its my nature to forgive ……pls learn about good positive , not negative…
my pathway teaches to listen and not argue ……. i am bliss full you have made note of what i ahve said….
may gods forgive your unkind words….. i alos pray for your calmness …
ravi
July 17th, 2007 at 3:27 pm
I was going to stay out of this one…I have had too many arguments with weak ass Hindus who somehow seem to think that Sikhs SAVED Hindus….and if it wasnt for the Sikhs, Hindus would have perished…what UTTER BULLSHIT. As someone pointed out in their post…what exactly were we doing for a thousand years BEFORE Sikhism when Islam was bludgeoning its way through the middle east and towards Bharat?…what were Hindus CONSTANTLY doing throughout the middle ages?…FIGHTING…RESISTING. All of the land to the west of Bharat is Muslim…..all of the land to the east of Bharat is Muslim…..yet Bharat remains over 80% Hindu to this day. Now THIS is what you call strength and doggedness. We resited the onslaught.
Yes Sikhs faught…but not ALYWAS on the side of the Hindus..and its well documented that Gobind Singh in the Zafarnama was telling aurangzeb how he is an idol smasher just like he is.
Its as if Hindu youth…dont know of our history and our exploits…our valour..what we had and have achieved. Thats annoying, becuase in the absense of such knowledge, their is a lack of true pride…and that when you get people like Ravi Sharma insisting that we were “saved” by Sikhs. Ravi…do you have any idea how lame you sound?
I had a Khalistani wannabe aquaintance once who used to bring in pictures of Khalistani rallies in the UK….seriously……there are a MASSIVE number of Sikhs who HATE Hindus and India. Trust me. At university when it was the world cup…the Sikhs would watch India……but only care about the SIKH players. Some of them would even only watch the Sikh players (and perhaps tendulkar) and leave after the Sikh player got out. So Ravi..if I was you, I wouldnt overestimate the Sikh “pyaar” for their hindu brethren. I do believe that Hindus and Sikhs are close..more so than any other two sets of religions…but I also bear witness to their superiority complex….and our own Hindu inferiority complex…and it boils down to skewed historical knowledge which is focused purely on Sikh exploits. Im sure youre aware that most modern history..esp regarding India and its religions is composed of BRITISH historical perspectives. This basically means that anyone that the British didnt like, they didnt really talk about favourably. Sikhs were seen as loyal..as were the Nepalese (Gurkha - who are btw HINDU WARRIORS)…Marathas military prowess..even Rajput prowess seems to have been conveniently ignored. Also what it funny is that South Indians or those of the low lying central plains were apparently viewed by the British as being non martial DESPITE the fact that some of the biggest and most powerful kingdoms Bharat has ever seen were based in these areas…and also the fact that a MASSIVE array of martial arts were developed and indigenous to SOUTH INDIAN areas…thus…this kind of debunks the whole bullshit martial races theory purported by the Brits).
Of course yuo think Sikhs saved us….youve probably been fed a diet of British historical propoganda - one that was designed to subjugate Hindus and Hinduism and “big up” anyone that helped them.
July 17th, 2007 at 8:38 pm
DB8’s hit the nail square on the head
The British as a colonising force saw the Hindu backbone of Bharat as the key obstacle to controlling it, this eternal dharma of the land united such externally diverse groups such as Tamils , Assamese, Kashmiris etc…by empowering and meddling in the affairs of certain groups they suceeded in dividing and fragmenting the people of the land thereby weaking it from within. Witness the dealings with the Muslim League, the Nawabs when they arrived as the East India company, with the Sikhs (Anandpur act, creation of teh Singh Sabha etc…) This brand of politics is still at work in India! See the article on the Gujjars! Jains have financial incentives to diassociate themsleves too. You are better off not being a Hindu in India, bottom line. Thats the state of affairs.
I’ve said this before, all the undeniably great stuff emanating from Sanathan Dharma is generally ascribed to either India, Buddhism,
Jainism, Sikhism and the distorted backward cr*p linked to Hinduism (Sati etc..). The media do it all the time!
On another note, whatever exploits the sikhs have done is passed on and remembered with pride,and so they should too ! Every sikh knows who Bhagat Singh is . How many Hindus know Bhagat Singhs revolutionary contemporaries and even his leader namely Sukhdev, Rajguru and Chandrasekhar Azad.
Wake up and dont really on textbooks to give you the truth on a plate. You have to be prepared to dig and question.
July 17th, 2007 at 8:52 pm
well check out this site, from british sikhs
http://sarabhapanjab.blogspot.com/
July 17th, 2007 at 9:48 pm
I am in favour of proactive debate, however, please bear in mind that there are no winners or loosers. There is only loss of gain to our Dharma. Given this, I would be greatful if you would all bear in mind the need for progress of Dharma before posting your opinion.
Also, there are a lot of newcomers to this website and we have to encourage them to take part and voice their opinions also. So please keep personal attacks and bad language outside of this forum - I’d like to think that at the end of this depate I will be in a position to make up my mind as to whether the Sikh community is with us.
July 17th, 2007 at 11:29 pm
db8, Some very good points.See alot of this is just plain common sense.If Hindus were so weak then how comes the whole of India is still majority Hindu.Well the answer through pure logic will tell you that either the invading forces just came to India on holiday for 800 hundred years to admire the country and people or the Hindus fought back.Well we all no apart from Ravi Sharma what the answer is to that.See the problem lies in with Hindus themselves who are not aware of their own history .They remember the swamis and sadhus but never the warriors who protected Hinduism.Every Hindu temple along with the great sages and gurus should also have pictures of the warriors for a start.With the Sikhs all I ever hear is that we saved you and the whole of India and thats why we’re different and thats what all their hate about us is based on.
July 18th, 2007 at 1:18 am
Sikhs are beyond “India”…Sikh have a higher aim (beyond this world)… Some of you Hindus are so bent on classifying Sikhs as Hindus….so if every Sikh started referring to themselves as “Hindu”, what difference would that make? If there were 30 million more “Hindus” on the 6 billion people planet, then what?
Sikhs believe that your practices (rituals and idol/animal worship) are wrong, unnecessary, false, gross (the monkeys, rats, cows ect.) bowing down to rocks….diry, nasty stuff….trying to feed food to idols and pictures…that is why Sikhs usually make fun of Hindus… we even took your word for brother “baiyaa” and turning it into a derogatory slur…classic…we might not say it to your faces but we make fun of all of the weird stuff you Hindus do and the crazy ideas you come up with…like Sikhs are Hindus…haha…that was settled over 500 years ago
July 18th, 2007 at 3:20 am
The extremists on all sides are the ones usually with little or no intelligence and who use the fist before the brain. They should be sidelined before we can have productive talks with any peoples of the world who have geo-political or theological diffences.
When we talk abt self determination that some Sikhs want from India it is based on just grievences they have faced since 1947 before that they ruled large parts of Punjab and other regional lands under the Sikh empire.
India was never one country but a land mass of different kingdoms from the borders of afghanistan to china these kingdoms were sovereign states int their own rights, had their own rulers, their own armies,etc.
So we must not forget that when Sikh seperatists talk about independance for Khalistan it is from historical perspective too let alone the greivences of 1984 where their holiest shrine was attacked, their historial documents burnt to ashes or looted by Indian army, their historical buildings of sovereignty destoryed, countless innocent civilian worshippers brutally murdered. And when Sikhs justly retaliated against the aggressor, the one who ordered the attack (indira gandhi). Innocent Sikh civilians were brutally singled out in New Delhi leading to congress terrorist pary mobs murdered, raping leaving 3,000+ dead in just 3 days.
This my friends was an act of state scationed terrorism. Any wonder many Sikhs in india then turned to seperatist militantancy against an oppressive congress party led state?
July 18th, 2007 at 8:41 am
a few of you have made jokes on langer - Langer is free food distributed for common folk…
This was begun by Guru Amar Das, he requested that all be allowed into the gurudwaras of any faith and caste….. emperor Akbar came to his court and was also asked to sit on the floor and eat langer…. he refused…. guruji refused to see him….So Akbar sat shoulder to shoulder with different castes, rich poor, males females and eat the Guru langer. This shows it is simple act of humanity ..the langer is ‘free food ‘ as you put it, but pls respect this !!!!
When we have free food we all sit equally and show respect for our Guruji……..
its a simple act of service….. TO FEED SOMEONE YOU DON’T KNOW IS THE KINDEST ACT OF FAITH.
Ravi
July 18th, 2007 at 9:44 am
The Guru Granth Sahib contains around 15,028 of references to Hindu concepts and the names of Hindu gods.
A near-exact count is given in K.P. Agrawala: Adi Shrî Gurû Granth Sâhib kî Mahimâ (Hindi: “The greatness of the original sacred Guru scripture”), p.2, and in Ram Swarup: “Hindu roots of Sikhism”, Indian Express,
The name of the Hindu god Shri Ram, is recited 2,400 times, (the gods name whose constant repetition leads to salvation).
Hari (Vishnu) over 8,300 times, 630 times by Guru Nanak alone,
Parabrahman, 550 times, Omkara, (the primeval sound of OM) 400 times.
Please note the names of countless other Hindu gods are also mentioned and are one and the same.
In contrast the name Mohammed is never mentioned and the name allah is used but a couple of times, merely as an example. It is interesting to note that the Granth itself contains banis from seven of the sikh gurus, two muslim Sufis, but EIGHTEEN Hindu saints and pandits.
The religious source of Sikhism is Hinduism, Sikhism is a tradition developed within Hinduism. Guru Granth Sahib reflect Vedantic philosophy, the Vedanta of Rishi Vedvyas who wrote the Mahabharat. The Japji Sahib is based on Upanishads.
Summary :
IN 1500 , Guru Nanak Dev Ji ( 1469-1538 ad.), went to bathe in a stream and was missing for three days.His first statement when he came out was “neti, neti ” (neither here, nor there from the Upanishads-Vedas) na koi hindu, na koi turkh, kudrat keh hain sab bandey”.
…three days is a short time if you want to free yourself from acquired physics and start a new religion… the insight with which he came back with after three days retreat, as quoted by Khushwant Singh was entirely within Hindu tradition:
” their is no muslim, no hindu” it does not mean that I Nanak, am neither hindu or muslim, it means that the self ( atma , timeless indweller, the object of this mystical experience) is beyond worldly divisions….
”the self is neither black nor white, neither hindu nor muslim, neither this nor that : neti, neti ,” is the Upanishadic phrase from the Vedas, is as typically Hindu as you can get’’
Guru Nanak Dev Ji, continued the bhakti methods of the saints before him, starting with the oral repetition of the name “Rama Nama’
If Guru Nanak Dev Ji’s discovery ” neither hindu nor muslim” had meant a positive conclusion, wouldn’t he have said: “neither Hindu, nor Muslim , sab Sikh?
It is strange that the statement used by many to say, he founded a new religion does not even mention this new religion?
Ek Om Kar, was already there in the Vedas - Hindu text, it is still there today. Ek = single OM = supreme being KAR= sound. Guru Nanak merely emphasised that particular path. Ek Om Kar is originally a Hindu concept. some Sikh separatists like to say EK ‘ON’KAR! what does ‘on’ mean?
Guru Angad was a devoted worshipper of the Goddess Durga. Every year he used to lead a group of devotees from Khadur Sahib, where he had settled, to the temple of Jwalamukhi in the lower Himalayas. In 1532 ad he met Guru Nanak at Kartarpur (pakistan) on his way to Jwalamukhi and became his disciple. Guru Nanak was most impressed with the devotion and selfless services of Lehna, that he proclaimed him as his successor guru in ad1539. As Nanak had previously embraced him, and because of the touch with his body e.g. “ang”, he changed the name of Lehna to Angad, Guru Angad made Khadur sahib his headquarters. Humayun, the Mughal emperor called on him here and paid him homage.
Sikhs were always known as a sect of Hinduism, which is why they continued celebrating traditional Hindu festivals such as Rakhri, Diwali, Lohri, Vaisakhi, Dusshera and Holi. Unlike the Hindus who became known as muslims and started celebrating muslim festivals. If indeed the Gurus wanted to create a new religion, would they not have created religious festivals to coincide and mark this new religions separate?
The fourth guru, Ram Das (1574-1581a.d ), excavated a tank which subsequently became known as Amritsar (pool of nectar) and gave its name to the city that grew around it. in due course, a splendid edifice, Har-mandir (temple of Hari-Vishnu), rose in the middle of this tank and became the supreme centre of the sikh sect of hinduism.
Hindus and the Hindus who later became known as Sikhs, would worship together at Hari(Vishnu)-mandir Sahib, aptly named by the fourth guru Ram Dass, it housed murtis of Lord Shiva, Lord Vishnu and the 6th Guru Harigobind until 1906 and is today known as the golden temple.
Sumer Singh Chauhan in his essay on the common heritage of the sikhs and hindus - divide & conquer - states:
“many scholars have stated that the granth contains specific references to hindu gods such as Rama and Krishna.
The gurudwaras, or sikh temples, have always been decorated with pictures of Hindu Gods, and both Devtas and Devis.
The first desecration of these pictures and Murtis was in 1906 at Harmandir, and this was the first action taken by separatist sikhs, heavily influences by British administrators such as Max Arthur Macauliffe and Wilheim Leitner (who invented the name Singh Sabha).
Until 1906 there remained life size Murtis of both Lord Hari ( Vishnu) and the 6th Guru Harigovind
Other gurudwaras also had them removed as recently as 1984, this occurred after the attack on the golden temple. this was not an attack on religion but was justified for reasons of national security.
IF THE GURUS DIDNT WANT MURTIS OF HINDU GODS IN THE
HAR(VISHNU) MANDIR, WOULDNT THEY HAVE SAID SO DURING THEIR LIFETIMES INSTEAD OF IT HAPPENING IN 1906 UNDER THE SAY SO OF THE BRITS???
Guru Govind passed on in 1708, over 200 years after his passing the Singh Sabha suddenly decide to remove these murtis??
———
All ten Gurus marriages were conducted by Hindu pandits and they were married within Hindu rituals, as were other Sikhs until the Anand Karaj Act was passed in 1909.
The Laava written by the 4th Guru Ram Dass were about mans spiritual union wiv god, which can never be BROKEN, not about a union between man and woman!
If the Sikh gurus all had Hindu weddings why, 200 years after the passing of the last Sikh Guru, Guru Govind Singh in 1708, was the ANAND KARAJ ACT passed in 1909?
Surely if the Gurus wanted Sikhs to have seperate weddings they would have said so in theri own lifetimes
——
Some closed minded bigots refer to Hindus as Idol worshippers, but Idol worshiping is truly something that we do not do, we worship with great vigor, with heart and soul.
Idol-worshipping is an offensive and derogatory term used by the British during the British Raj through shear ignorance to degrade our ancient religion. We use Murtis to help us worship we do not specifically worship these images, we use these as focal points to help us worship god
July 18th, 2007 at 9:46 am
Im sick of hearing Sikhs blame HINDUS for 1984, and forget how it was US that helped them in DELHI when they were under attack.
Prime minister India Ghandi married to a Parsi Feroze Ghandi, wasnt a practising Hindu
President Zial Singh - keshdari Singh approved the order to attack, was A TURBAN WEARING SIKH
General Kuldeep Singh Brar, who led the attack was a JATT SIKH?
Kps Gill, KILLED THE TERRORISTS- JATT SIKH?
July 18th, 2007 at 12:12 pm
“we make fun of all of the weird stuff you Hindus do”
Actually fanning a book and putting it to sleep and then waking it up is very normal indeed and I’m sure the rest of the world will find it normal as well and its no wonder everyone everywhere is doing it..
July 18th, 2007 at 12:15 pm
“Sikhs usually make fun of Hindus…”
Well thats upto you but we know in reality right or wrong that there are more jokes about Sikhs then any Hindu that most people laugh at.( or Sikhs wouldn’t be complaining about it )So the jokes really on you.
July 18th, 2007 at 12:19 pm
Harvi Singh,
Some of the points you have made have been written in the article but whats you view to all the thousands of Hindus that were taken off buses in Punjab and killed by Sikh extremists because I never ever hear that from Sikhs but you will hear Hindus also highlighting to wrongs against Sikhs example being this artcle.
July 18th, 2007 at 12:21 pm
“a few of you have made jokes on langer - Langer is free food distributed for common folk…”
Ravi Sharma, No one was making joke out of langer but were making jokes out of you which you personally do a good job yourself without our help.
July 18th, 2007 at 1:41 pm
pls ignorant types pls do not come onto this discussion as it will make sense to you……
I have forgiven the ignorant for their comments……… may gurujis bless you all…….
hare krishna
July 18th, 2007 at 2:36 pm
well keep on dising the sikhs and they will become khalistanis .khalistani are only their because on hindu idiots.if you people are stupid enough not read karma.then i cant do anything with you.more you push them more far they go from darama
July 18th, 2007 at 2:44 pm
yes yes go Sikh Sangat,,,,,,
thankyou for some sense to the debate……
we need more facts like mentioned by you…
ravi
July 18th, 2007 at 3:16 pm
“I have forgiven the ignorant for their comments……… may gurujis bless you all…….”
i hope they bless u more than us cuz sooner or later some Hindu like me will find u and then all these cyber antics will be over mate, come on for a clown who thinks sikhs saved Hindus and doen’t even know that Karthikeya and Murugan are the same to talk about facts is the biggest joke in the world.
July 18th, 2007 at 3:19 pm
“well keep on dising the sikhs and they will become khalistanis .khalistani are only their because on hindu idiots.if you people are stupid enough not read karma.then i cant do anything with you.more you push them more far they go from darama”
ya and u r the Hindu idiot i should say, keep licking their arse if u like em so much, anyway i think u r panicking cuz Hindus r becoming more and more assertive and arse lickers like u r bcoming totally irrelevant and that’s what pisses u off.
hehehehe what have khalistanis done last 10 yrs except pakora gas about khalistan abroad, they r all talk and no action, total cowards.
July 18th, 2007 at 3:25 pm
looks like some of the jokers from sikhsangat.com and tapoban.org have come on the forum
all I see is modern day Sikhs having no identity except ‘we hate Hindus’
you ask them who they are and they start with ‘we are not Hindus’
their total religious and historical identifcation is obssessed with being ‘not Hindus’
to the point where we are now seeing a serious identity problem amongst many young Sikhs today where even if you meet someone whose educated and a professional he will still talk endless nonsense about history and bahmans and bhaiyas and kutchis (even though they dont ebelive n caste or race - and its the Hindus fault anyway)
They are marching straight into the dustbin of history - they can either save themselves now or good riddance to the lot
July 18th, 2007 at 3:28 pm
Ramu
are you the retard who posts on sikhsangat.com ?
always making fake youtube videos (pretending that the bahmans made them ?) LOL
Get a life moron - anyone who reads any sikh site or books know that they dont need any help or incietment to hate Hindus
all there sites seem to be in a near total obsession with hating and dissing Hindus
July 18th, 2007 at 4:49 pm
Namaste and Sat Sri Akal
People, Interesting debate going on here but I have to point out to all the Hindu brothers here that dont confuse these khalistani’s with real Sikhs like Santhani Sikhs and others who still hold and live by the the vision of the Gurus.If there is any danger to Sikhi then its not from Hindus but these Khalistanis who have based their beliefs on just plain hatered on Hindus and other Sikhs sects.
Anything based on lies and falsehood will not last long.These same extremists will pay a heavy price in the end by their hatered of other human beings.
Please visit
http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/sikh_menu.html
July 18th, 2007 at 5:09 pm
Jag the problem is not just Khalistanis but the rss clowns and idiots among Hindus who are bent upon proving that sikhs are Hindus or some other crap, the point is made in the article, let the 2 communities choose their own identity and things will be fine, yes i know about sanatan sikhs and the clowns r always hating on them on the sikh forums too.
July 18th, 2007 at 6:46 pm
I think I would give some input on the article and some of the comments. First of all, Sikhs are NOT Hindus! Its really simple and obvious point but for some reason (even visible from the comments here) most of the Hindus are hell bent on trying to prove it otherwise..why? Isn’t it to maximize Hindu power and stronghold in India just like Buddhism and Jainism has been reduced to nothing more than the sect of Hindu religion! And that proves Sikhs correct and why they don’t want to associate with Hindu groups (note, I said groups not people!). Because all these groups have the same agenda under their sleeves. They don’t want to accept Sikhism as a separate religion because in their minds, it undermines Hinduism!
Which brings up the second point. People keep saying Sikhs are Hindus because Guru Nanak was born in Hindu family! Okay, is that really the smartest reasoning you guys could come up with? Religion and beliefs are not based on what family you were born in but instead what path you follow for spiritual enlightenment. Jesus Christ was born Jew but if you use the same argument and tell any Christian that they are all Jews because Jesus was born Jew, you will get the same kind of ass whooping as you would if you tell a Sikh that they are Hindus because Guru Nanak was born in Hindu family. Gur Nanak rejected Hindu customs, traditions and Vedas because they don’t get you any closer to God.
Third point, how can two religions be similar when even their most basic/core belief is not the same! Let me explain! Sikhism is very clear on God and prayers. Its written in Japji Sahib. God is not born, doesn’t die, is formless, omnipotent. You can only realize God by reading Gurbani and living life according to that. What is God in Hinduism or shall I say who or how many Gods are there in Hinduism? Hindus don’t have the concrete answer, it depends on what kind of Hindu you are. Matter of fact, there is no religion called Hinduism! Its just a combination of various different sects and beliefs from the same region (Indus valley). Therefore, there is no definition of God for Hindus. God can be invisible but it can also be visible. Hindus believe in various forms of mythological figures as God e.g. Shiva, Vishnu, Rama, Krishna and millions of other gods and goddesses. Sikhism rejects all of them! Some Hindus say that their deities and gods are mentioned in Guru Granth Sahib! True, but I think they are only focusing on the names mentioned not what’s written along with those names in Gurbani. Sikhism also wrote Allah, Raheem and many other words for God, but does it mean Sikhs are Muslims? No, because if you actually read Gurbani and understand it, you will notice that the point was to tell people that you are trying to describe the indescribable! You can call God Ram or Raheem, it doesn’t matter, God is ever present not some physical being living in Ayodha, or some Vrindavan jungle. Therefore, Gurbani stresses the point that Krishna as God is not the Krishan Hindus are worshipping all the time.
Then how can you compare the two different meanings of God and say it’s the same religion. Religion is your belief in God and how you live your life based on different paths. So, if you can’t even have the same meaning of God, you can’t have nay similarity because two very different belief sets.
Another point, the similarities which exist are more cultural practices and not religious. Someone said that Hindus and Sikhs are same part of greater Indian region! Sounds great for Indian lovers but what about the people who don’t live in India and are not Indians? If religion is truth then it’s the same regardless of where on the planet you live. But if you are only focusing on a region (India for Hindus) then it can’t be truth in any other parts of the world, which means its not truth at all! Sikhism only shows you how to realize God, which is by Naam Japna (reciting true name of God as mentioned in Gurbani), Vand Shakhna (sharing with others) and Kirat karni (hard work). This can be applied anywhere in the world and those who follow this path showed by Gurus, they are Sikhs regardless of them being Indian or Americans.
Finally, Khalistan and other political issues are very debatable and there are thousands of sites which will give you the true story with evidence! So, if you are really interested to know what really happened maybe read through and do your research, you will get the answers. I won’t even go on about killing of Indira Ghandi and why thousands of Sikhs were killed for three days by Hindu mobs and NOBODY has ever been arrested! Just to point out inaccuracy in this article and lack of full disclosure, Operation Blue Star was not to flush out some militants from Golden temple but it was to maximize the damage to Sikhs and Sikh psyche. The day was chosen with careful planning and thousands of pilgrims who were in Golden temple that day and had nothing to do with Khalistan were gunned down by forces without giving them any chance to come out. Sort of like what British did in Jallianwala Bagh. Also, at the same time, 29 other Gurudwaras in India were burned down and looted! Why do that if you are only interested in killing Militants in Golden temple. There were no armed militants in other Gurudwaras. Plus, all the priceless Sikh historical artifacts and treasure was looted from Golden Temple and some was destroyed while other is missing till this date. Army or the govt. has given no explanation for it so far!
July 18th, 2007 at 7:40 pm
“Okay, is that really the smartest reasoning you guys could come up with? Religion and beliefs are not based on what family you were born in but instead what path you follow for spiritual enlightenment. Jesus Christ was born Jew but if you use the same argument and tell any Christian that they are all Jews because Jesus was born Jew, you will get the same kind of ass whooping as you would if you tell a Sikh that they are Hindus because Guru Nanak was born in Hindu family.”
Is this the most cleverest point you can ever make ? Jesus was born a Jew and died a Jew and that is fact. Paul was the one who sowed the seeds for Christianity. Now the Christians and even Muslims recognise the prophets as Judaism as their own prophets so they know very well the are connected.The same goes for Guru Nanak who was born a Hindu and died a Hindu but it was later on thanks to the Brits especially who encouraged the separation as you are known very well to bootlick goras so its only natural you will take their words as Gods words. So instead of even attempting to be clever use a better examples instead of getting your own ass whooped.
July 18th, 2007 at 7:43 pm
“most of the Hindus are hell bent on trying to prove it otherwise..why? Isn’t it to maximize Hindu power and stronghold in India just like Buddhism and Jainism has been reduced to nothing more than the sect of Hindu religion!”
ya right, the only one here repeatedly trying to prove that is some moron named ravi sharma, whom we think as an idiot.
listen mate, sikhs are not Hindus, and we don’t want nothing to do with u lot anyway, so why don’t u read before u post.
“I won’t even go on about killing of Indira Ghandi and why thousands of Sikhs were killed for three days by Hindu mobs and NOBODY has ever been arrested!”
more lies, the mobs were Congress mobs not “Hindu mobs”, the magazine Outlook released a list of people allegedly involved in the massacre and surprise surprise, many Muslims are also among the accused, check the list before u spew nonsense:
http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=986&st=60
(Post 62) has the list.
The only idiot who thinks Nanak was Hindu cuz he was born Hindu is probably that dimwit ravi sharma, anyway too bad for u if u r one of those sikhs who got used to crap like “sikhs r hindus” or “sikhs r sword arm of Hindus” or “sikhs saved Hindus” there r Hindus out there now who will go after arse lickers like ravi sharma since we do consider him to be a traitor to Hindus, any Hindu who arse licks sikhs is a traitor.
July 18th, 2007 at 7:51 pm
“They don’t want to accept Sikhism as a separate religion because in their minds, it undermines Hinduism!”
Yeh right.What 20-30 million makes it a religion ?Not only is it declining fast as many Sikhs are converting to Christianty and with the amount of Sikh Girls converting to Islam even the Jedi Knights cult has more followers.So keep on dreaming.
July 18th, 2007 at 10:23 pm
to “singh”
let me break down your illusions one by one:
1. “I would give some input on the article and some of the comments. First of all, Sikhs are NOT Hindus!”
READ GENERAL SIN’S POST IN WHICH HE SAYS,
“all I see is modern day Sikhs having no identity except ‘we hate Hindus’
you ask them who they are and they start with ‘we are not Hindus’
their total religious and historical identifcation is obssessed with being ‘not Hindus’”……………..I REST MY CASE
2. “Its really simple and obvious point but for some reason (even visible from the comments here) most of the Hindus are hell bent on trying to prove it otherwise..why? Isn’t it to maximize Hindu power and stronghold in India just like Buddhism and Jainism has been reduced to nothing more than the sect of Hindu religion! And that proves Sikhs correct and why they don’t want to associate with Hindu groups (note, I said groups not people!). Because all these groups have the same agenda under their sleeves. They don’t want to accept Sikhism as a separate religion because in their minds, it undermines Hinduism!”
OUR WHOLE POINT IS THAT WE DON’T HAVE TO PROVE ANYTHING. EVERYONE HERE, EXCEPT RAVI SHARMA, HAS BEEN SAYING THE SAME THING THAT SIKHS ARE NOT HINDUS BUT WHY DON’T YOU ACCEPT THAT SIKHISM HAS FREELY BORROWED FROM HINDUISM. AFTERALL, YOU GUYS DID NOT FALL OUT OF THE SKY ALL OF A SUDDEN. SIKHISM EVOLVED OUT OF THE CULTURE PREVALENT AT THAT TIME AND THE GRANTH HAS THE WORDS OF SEVERAL HINDU BHAGATS.
3. “Third point, how can two religions be similar when even their most basic/core belief is not the same! Let me explain! Sikhism is very clear on God and prayers. Its written in Japji Sahib. God is not born, doesn’t die, is formless, omnipotent. You can only realize God by reading Gurbani and living life according to that. What is God in Hinduism or shall I say who or how many Gods are there in Hinduism? Hindus don’t have the concrete answer, it depends on what kind of Hindu you are. Matter of fact, there is no religion called Hinduism!”
ANOTHER MORON TRYING TO PROVE HIMSELF TO BE AN EXPERT IN HINDUISM. GOD ISN’T BORN, HE DOES NOT DIE, HE IS FORMLESS, OMNIPOTENT ARE IDEAS THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN PUT FORWARD HUNDREDS OF YEARS BEFORE NANAK WAS BORN. DO YOU WANT ME TO GIVE YOU SPECIFIC QUOTES? JUST READ SRIMADBHAGVAD GITA. IT’LL TURN YOUR LITTLE BRAIN AROUND. YOU JUST PROVED THAT THE BASIC TENETS OF SIKHISM BORROW HEAVILY FROM OUR RELIGION. THERE’S NOTHING NEW.
4. “Its just a combination of various different sects and beliefs from the same region (Indus valley). Therefore, there is no definition of God for Hindus. God can be invisible but it can also be visible. Hindus believe in various forms of mythological figures as God e.g. Shiva, Vishnu, Rama, Krishna and millions of other gods and goddesses. Sikhism rejects all of them!”
WE BELIEVE THAT GOD IS INSIDE EVERYONE. HOW STUPID WOULD IT BE IF GOD WAS SOME FORMLESS BEING STAYING AWAY FROM ALL OF US? OUR PHILOSOPHY IS MUCH SUPERIOR TO THAT OF THE SIKHS.
5. “Some Hindus say that their deities and gods are mentioned in Guru Granth Sahib! True, but I think they are only focusing on the names mentioned not what’s written along with those names in Gurbani.” JUST PROVES MY POINT THAT YOUR RELIGION BORROWS HEAVILY FROM
6. “Another point, the similarities which exist are more cultural practices and not religious. Someone said that Hindus and Sikhs are same part of greater Indian region!…BLAH BLAH BLAH”. THIS POINT IS SO DAMN LAME. I THINK YOU MANAGED TO THOROUGHLY CONFUSE YOURSELF WHEN YOU WROTE THIS
7. ABOUT KHALISTAN, LET ME GIVE YOU SOME INFO WHICH NO KHALISTANI SITE WILL EVER GIVE YOU:
http://www.punjabtrauma.org/
I WILL POST ANOTHER ARTICLE AFTER THIS WHICH YOU CAN READ AT YOUR PLEASURE. THAT OUGHT TO OPEN THE EYES OF AT LEAST SOME OF THE SIKHS, WHICH READ THIS, WHO ARE CONSTATNTLY FED ON A DIET OF KHALISTANI PROPAGANDA.
July 18th, 2007 at 10:25 pm
FROM AN ARTICLE BY HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH
Abuses by Militants(92)
Between 1981 and 1992, at least seven major Sikh militant organizations and approximately a dozen smaller groups, often acting independently of one another and sometimes at cross-purposes, waged frequent bloody attacks against unarmed civilians, engaging in both random acts of violence, as well as violence targeting particular individuals or groups. Some of the groups were organized into forces with identifiable command structures, although with constantly shifting political alliances, the structures tended not always to be obvious. Others operated more as criminal gangs who found in the political crisis a lucrative business in extortion and arms smuggling. By 1990, the seven major groups were all, at least nominally, under the authority of one of several Panthic Committees, which functioned as decision-making and command bodies.(93) Although members of Sikh militant organizations were relatively few in number compared to the total Sikh population, and in recent years had increasingly equivocal support from the local Sikh population, the militants reportedly had little difficulty raising money from Sikhs living abroad to finance their activities.(94)
Beginning in 1981, however, Sikh militants regularly engaged in a pattern of serious violations of humanitarian law.(95) Most of these violations involved deliberate attacks on unarmed civilians. These took a variety of forms: random assaults on civilians; targeted killings of Hindu civilians and Sikh civilians suspected of collaboration with the Indian government; and assassinations of political figures and Hindu religious leaders. Although most militant Sikh attacks on civilians took place in Punjab, they were also undertaken in other regions of India, particularly in the neighboring state of Haryana, and in Delhi and Bombay.
Militants frequently opened fire in public areas such as marketplaces, crowded streets, and residential neighborhoods; targeted Hindu laborers for murder; attacked public buses and trains; assassinated political and religious figures and government employees; engaged in election-related violence; threatened the lives of journalists; extorted money from local businessmen through threats and kidnapping; killed the families of policemen; and used religious sites frequented by civilians for military purposes. In almost all instances, they used light weapons such as automatic rifles, grenades, rockets, and bombs.
Random Attacks on Civilians in Public Places
Militant groups deliberately directed attacks against civilians in public areas, shooting randomly, for example, through crowded marketplaces, in residential districts, and on congested streets. These attacks apparently were designed to cause extensive civilian casualties, and induce general terror among the civilian population, in clear violation of all international norms.
Automatic weapons made it easier for militants to carry out these kinds of attacks. Assault rifles, for example, permitted militants to shoot large numbers of people while riding by in a car or on a motorscooter. Such weapons also increased the number of casualties and helped the attackers to avoid capture by permitting them to flee under cover of rapid fire. The accounts below are typical of attacks that appeared to be deliberately carried out by Sikh militants against randomly chosen, unarmed civilians in public places using deadly automatic weaponry.
In October 1992, suspected Sikh militants gunned down five civilians and a law enforcement officer in a heavily wooded area in Uttar Pradesh that has become a refuge for Sikh separatists fleeing a crackdown by Indian authorities in Punjab. The attack followed a massacre two months earlier of twenty-nine villagers in the same area. In that incident, villagers collecting wood in the forest were captured by suspected militants, bound, and killed by automatic gunfire.(96)
In March 1992, four Sikh separatists armed with AK47 assault rifles went on a shooting spree in the industrial city of Ludhiana killing twenty civilians and injuring others. The armed gunmen drove a car first through the city’s Vishwakarma residential district, mowing down ten people at a neighborhood market. The gunmen then drove on, shooting people at random along a two-mile route, killing eight more. They ended the rampage at a public square by shooting to death two more civilians, and then escaped.(97)
In May 1988, a total of sixty-five people were reported killed by Sikh extremists in hit-and-run attacks in a thirty-six-hour period.(98)
In Kuban village in October 1986, five gunmen sprayed a crowded marketplace with bullets on a Saturday killing eight people and injuring four. Police sources said the attack appeared to be in revenge for the police killing of militants in the area earlier the same month. It was the worst single attack since fourteen bus passengers were shot near Mukhtsar town three months earlier.(99)
On May 21, 1986, Sikh gunmen killed nine Hindus and two Sikhs in a shooting spree in an Amritsar market. The attacks came during a twelve-week period of separatist violence during which more than 230 people were killed, many of them Hindu civilians.(100)
Targeting the Hindu population
It is sometimes difficult to tell whether particular attacks on civilians in public areas are completely random–to induce terror generally–or are directed specifically against Hindu civilians to force them to leave. Other instances are more clear. Quite apart from selective attacks on Hindu political and religious leaders, militants carried out a campaign of terror against Hindu civilians simply because of their religious and cultural affiliation. This was in keeping with the stated aim of the Sikh separatist movement to create an independent state, a task considered easier if the Hindu population fled. Militants also attacked Hindu civilians in retaliation for crackdowns by the Indian government.
Attacks often occurred in neighborhoods known to be home to large Hindu populations. On November 20, 1990, for example, Sikh militants rampaged through Islamabad, a predominantly Hindu neighborhood in Amritsar, shooting into shops along the street. Twelve civilians were killed.(101) Asia Watch representatives spoke to a number of witnesses who described the attack. They explained that at about 7:30 P.M., four men wearing shawls over the faces, armed with AK47 rifles, began to shoot on the main street of Islamabad’s busy commercial center. They moved down the street, firing into shops, killing merchants, customers, and passersby. When Asia Watch visited Islamabad in early December 1990, bullet holes were visible in the walls and floor boards inside the shops and in the outside walls. According to a local journalist, the Khalistan Commando Force claimed responsibility for the killings.(102)
Militants sometimes claim that particular attacks against the Hindu population are carried out in revenge for security force crackdowns on militant activity. In the villages of Bhikhiwind and Patti in Amritsar district, for example, militants undertook a series of kidnappings and murders in late 1990, apparently in retaliation for the killing of a large number of militants by the security forces in the area over the previous month, as well as to terrorize local Hindus into leaving and to extort ransom payments from wealthy families. Shortly before the attacks, the Khalistan Commando Force had issued an order to all Hindus to leave the area within three days. The attacks, which also occurred in several neighboring villages, caused many Hindus to flee to Amritsar and New Delhi.(103) At least some of the attacks were carried out with automatic rifles, including AK47s.
More recently, on March 25, 1993, Sikh separatists armed with automatic weapons opened fire on Hindus in a market in Jagraon, killing seven Hindu civilians and seriously wounding two more. Indian officials claimed that the attack was part of a continued campaign by militants to force Hindus out of Punjab.(104)
Reports of attacks near Hindu temples, in conjunction with Hindu festivals, and even on Hindus praying at religious sites were also common; such attacks often involved use of deadly automatic weapons.
On July 14, 1992, four militants riding motorscooters opened fire at a busy shopping district in Bhatinda town in Punjab, killing seven civilians and injuring five more seriously. The incident took place outside a Hindu temple, and may have been in retaliation for a security operation aimed at flushing out militants in the area.(105)
In April 1990, thirty-five people were killed when a bomb exploded during a Hindu religious procession; Sikh separatists were suspected. The bombing set off dozens of Hindu-Sikh clashes throughout the state, resulting in another sixteen deaths.(106)
In October 1987, gunmen on a motorscooter killed at least eight people in the Indian capital, spraying submachine gun bullets in a residential neighborhood and at fairs heralding the Hindu New Year. The gunmen then abandoned their scooter and boarded a public bus which was halted at a police roadblock about six miles from the shootings. The gunmen opened fire, wounding a sub-inspector and a passenger.(107)
In May 1986, Sikh extremists reportedly opened fire with automatic weapons on Hindus praying outside a small-town shrine in Punjab state, killing two and wounding seven. The shooting occurred as the Hindus were reading from the Hindu epic Ramayana in what was to have been a night-long prayer vigil. It was the second major attack in a month in Jandiala Gur, a town fifteen miles east of Amritsar.(108)
Hindu farm laborers were frequent targets.(109) Some observers have speculated that militants were seeking to destroy the state’s economy by driving away farm labor. Others believed that the militants wanted only Sikhs to work in the state. The following incidents were typical:
In May 1988, six Sikhs armed with automatic rifles opened fire on sleeping workers in the village of Gujarpura, about eighteen miles northwest of Amritsar. Nine workers were killed, and three wounded. Two days earlier, at a labor camp in Amritsar, Sikh militants ordered Hindu migrants to line up against a wall and then shot five to death. Two days before that, thirty workers were slain as they slept at a Hindu migrant workers camp near Chandigarh. The attacks prompted an exodus of hundreds of Hindu laborers who traditionally migrate from the northern states of Bihar and Orissa to work on farms in Punjab.(110)
Some attacks on Hindu civilians were thought to be aimed at instigating violence between Hindus and Sikhs to help revive waning support among Sikh moderates for the militant cause. In June 1988, for example, more than sixty people, mainly Hindu civilians, were killed and at least one hundred injured in bombings that took place over three days. The attacks were carried out in shopping centers, cinemas, markets, and temples. The bombings came in the wake of the Sikh surrender to Indian security forces during the May 1988 siege of the Golden Temple shrine. Many Sikhs were angered, claiming that the militants should have fought to the death or not have begun the fight at all. In addition, a number of Sikhs had recently turned against militants who had waged a campaign of extortion and blackmail of rich Sikh farmers, reportedly conducted by leaders inside the temple. Commentators speculated that the attacks on Hindu civilians were probably part of an attempt to provoke a Hindu backlash against Sikhs, which in turn could help recoup support for the separatist platform.(111) One of the results of sustained violence and threats of violence by militants against the Hindu population–and arguably an intentional result–was the creation of a large internally displaced Hindu population.(112)
Bus and Train Attacks
Sikh militants frequently attacked civilian passengers on public buses and trains in Punjab and neighboring states. While the majority of these attacks did not seem to target particular individuals, many of them were apparently directed against Hindus; frequently, Hindu passengers were singled out for execution, and in some cases, militants stopped vehicles likely to being carrying Hindus–buses traveling to Hindu religious sites, for example.
The basic pattern of assaults on buses and trains was that militants forced a vehicle to a halt, removed Hindu passengers, and shot them to death, usually with automatic rifles. On occasion, the militants firebombed the vehicle, apparently intending to kill all on board.
The Arms Project identified dozens of reports of attacks on buses and trains carried out by militants. The following accounts are representative examples:
In December 1992, a state-run bus traveling to Chandigarh was ambushed by six militants, believed to be members of the Khalistan Liberation Front, who ordered Hindu passengers to stand apart from the Sikhs. The gunmen reportedly then raked the Hindus with hundreds of rounds of AK47 rifle fire, killing sixteen and wounding nine. Five weeks earlier, twenty-five Hindu migrant laborers were killed in a similar bus attack.(113)
On November 4, 1992, militants placed road blocks and stopped vehicles on the Gurdaspur-Tibri road near Amritsar. Seventeen persons identified as Hindu were shot. According to a report published in the Punjab English daily, Tribune, the police claimed to have recovered a note on Bhindranwale Tiger Force (btf) letterhead stating that the killings were in retaliation for the killing of a btf leader.(114)
In an October 1992 attack marking the fourth anniversary of the assassination of former Prime Minister Indira Gandhi, Sikh gunmen bombed an intercity bus near the border between Punjab and Kashmir, killing eighteen civilians and seriously injuring twenty-eight. The attack, along with two separate attacks against Hindu laborers, triggered anti-Sikh rioting.(115)
At about 9:30 P.M. on June 15, 1991, gunmen opened fire inside two passenger trains stopped outside Ludhiana, killing at least 75 passengers. The attacks reportedly were coordinated, as both trains were stopped about a mile from the station by having their emergency cords pulled. Survivors stated that on one of the trains, Hindu passengers were identified before being shot. On the second train, the firing was indiscriminate, and many Sikhs as well as Hindus were killed. Although no group claimed responsibility for the attacks, they were believed to have been carried out by groups opposed to the elections scheduled for June 22.(116)
On July 7, 1987, Sikh separatists attacked two buses in northern Haryana state, killing thirty-four. Most of the victims were Hindu. The militants used a car and a jeep to create a roadblock. On one bus, they singled out particular passengers, dragged them off, and shot them to death. Militants then boarded the second bus and opened fire, killing all the passengers. Chinese-made AK47s were used in both attacks. The incidents occurred the day after militants opened fire on a bus in Punjab, killing forty passengers, and wounding twenty-seven. The victims were all Hindus bound for a pilgrimage center in Uttar Pradesh.(117)
In June 1987, militants hauled seventy-two Hindus off two rural buses and shot them dead.(118)
Election-Related Violence
Militants reportedly used violence and threats of violence to undermine elections in Punjab in 1991 and 1992. In 1991, the Indian government called for state legislative elections which would effectively end five years of direct rule by New Delhi. Militants ordered an election boycott, claiming that a vote would validate Indian rule and undercut Sikh efforts to achieve a separate nation. A widespread campaign of violence, in which twenty-four candidates were assassinated, apparently prompted the Indian government to cancel the 1991 elections.(119)
New elections were scheduled the following year on February 19, 1992. Sikh militants called for another boycott, which they again promised to enforce with violence. Some political parties also boycotted the polls. About a quarter of the normal number of candidates ran, and those that did feared for their lives. As one journalist noted: “More bodyguards than supporters surround candidate Kanwaljit Singh as he sets out on the campaign trail every morning in the violence-wracked northern state of Punjab.”(120)
Campaign rallies were poorly attended, as residents feared attack by the militants and by members of rival political parties. Shop owners in towns where candidates made appearances often left stores unattended rather than risk having a candidate enter and strike up a conversation.(121) At one campaign gathering in southern Punjab gunmen opened fire killing five people in what appeared to be a grim warning to prospective voters.(122) Militants also vowed to kill the first five voters at each of the state’s 14,659 polling stations.(123) A press account described the following:
Devinder Singh, 22, and unemployed, sentenced himself to death Wednesday. He voted. Himself a Sikh, when asked if he was afraid, he responded, “People get killed here traveling in buses. People get killed in marketplaces everyday. People get killed just walking outside. So I’ll get killed voting.”(124)
According to one press account, in villages where the militants were strongest, not a single person voted. Only a handful of civilians were actually killed on election day, and a few dozen wounded, in bombings and shootings at polling places. However, revenge killings came later. Police reports showed that in a period of less than two weeks after the elections, there were almost one hundred murders in Punjab. Some of those killed were villagers who defied the boycott and voted.(125) In one incident a week after the election, militants shot five Harijans(126) in Sangrur, and five more in Ludhiana district; large numbers of Harijans voted for a candidate strongly opposed by the militants.(127)
Attacks on Public Figures, Government Officials, and Religious Leaders
Political and religious leaders, including heads of villages and members of rival Sikh organizations, were frequently attacked, typically shot dead by militants using automatic weapons. Government officials such as judges and state ministers were also common targets. Asia Watch detailed numerous killings of this type in its 1991 report on Punjab. The report highlighted, for example, the 1990 assassination of a former finance minister, Balwant Singh, who had helped broker an accord between Sikh groups and the Gandhi government. Singh and two bodyguards were killed by gunmen who opened fire on his car with automatic rifles. Militant groups aligned with the Sohan Singh Panthic Committee claimed responsibility for the murders.(128)
The following accounts, excerpted from press reports, also illustrate the pattern of such attacks:
In September 1993, a car bomb attack using RDX explosives against Sikh moderate politician Maninder Singh Bitta killed eight people. Bitta himself escaped with minor injuries. Three Sikh separatist organizations claimed joint responsibility.(129)
In May 1992, Sikh separatists riding scooters shot at the car of Excise and Tax Commissioner A.K. Mishra at Bradara Gardens in Patialia City. Mishra and his guards were killed, and the driver of the car was injured.(130)
In November 1988, Jagdev Singh Talwandi, a Sikh leader who had initiated moves to unite the main Sikh political party, was shot and critically injured. Two of his bodyguards were killed. Militant Sikhs opposing the unification were believed responsible for the attack.(131)
In January 1987, Sikh extremists armed with automatic rifles assassinated Joginder Pal Pandey, a leading Hindu politician and his bodyguard. Six other people were also killed by militants in a surge of attacks in Punjab.(132)
In September 1986, officials in Chandigarh said Additional District and Sessions Judge R.P. Gaind was shot four times by two Sikh gunmen in a store in Jullundur as his wife and daughter stood outside. The two assassins, armed with 9mm semi-automatic pistols, escaped on a motorscooter. Gaind had received death threats from Sikh militants after presiding three years ago over a dispute between Sikhs and Hindus involving a Hindu temple in Jullundur. He also tried cases involving Sikh separatists in the city of Hoshiarpur.(133)
Attacks on Journalists
Journalists were particularly targeted by Sikh militants. In particular, Human Rights Watch/Asia noted that the Hind Samochar group of newspapers was a favorite target; between 1981 and February 1991, militants assassinated sixty people associated with the chain.(134)
On November 22, 1990, the Sikh Panthic Committee issued a “code of conduct” for the press which required all journalists to refer to Sikh separatists as “militants,” “freedom fighters,” or “mujahidin,” rather than “terrorists” or “extremists,” and to refer to Punjab as Khalistan. They threatened that non-compliance would result in “memorable punishment.”(135) In February 1991, the Zaffarwal Panthic Committee issued an additional code of conduct ordering all journalists to boycott government-sponsored events, and to refuse to publish government material or any “objectionable, derogatory and misleading” news about the militants. The statement warned that the committee “may award the death penalty” to those who did not obey the code.(136) The Sohan Singh Panthic Committee published a similar directive, which threatened “strict punishment” to journalists as well as government employees and university faculty members who used English typewriters and engaged in undefined activities of which the group did not approve. (137)
Attacks on Families of Police
While a variety of police, paramilitary and military units operated in Punjab, the Punjab police were the principal government force combatting Sikh militants throughout the conflict.(138) Police performing military functions are not “protected” from attack under international humanitarian law as they are considered to be taking an active part in hostilities.
However, the families of police also became militant targets, particularly in 1992. For example, in August 1992, following the death of a founder of the Sikh militant groups, militants launched a vengeance campaign against families of police, killing scores of people, including children. The vendetta additionally was intended to demoralize the predominantly Sikh police force and deflate a sense of victory over the recent crackdown on militants.(139) Attacking the civilian family members of police–whether the police are engaged in combat duty or not–is a gross violation of international law.
Use of Religious Sites As Military Strongholds
On several occasions, Sikh militants used Amritsar’s Golden Temple complex as a military stronghold. This contravened humanitarian law forbidding the use of places of worship in support of military efforts, as well as laws which require combatants to take measures to protect civilians from attack and to avoid locating military objectives in densely populated areas.(140)
The Golden Temple is the holiest shrine of Sikhism, frequented by numerous worshippers. After negotiations broke down in 1982 between the central government and the Sikh’s main political party in Punjab, the Akali Dal, Sikh leader Bhindrawale and his followers retreated to the Golden Temple complex. There they built up a sizeable cache of weapons. On June 4, the Indian army attacked the Golden Temple, killing hundreds of civilians, including worshippers. Indian government forces were guilty of outrageous violations of fundamental human rights–deliberately attacking the temple at a time they knew thousands of religious pilgrims were inside, not offering an opportunity for surrender, and summarily executing those it captured. Bhindrawale and his supporters also violated humanitarian law by using the Golden Temple as a military stronghold.
In May 1988, heavily-armed militants again holed up in the Golden Temple, and engaged in gun battles with Indian troops over the course of a week. According to police, militants opened fire from at least sixteen different sites in the complex, mainly with Chinese-made AK47 rifles. They also claimed that militants had large ammunition supplies in the basement of the main temple building. Several civilians were killed before militants surrendered. Numerous civilians were in the complex hile militants and troops exchanged gunfire, including approximately 800 pilgrims who eventually were evacuated.(141)
Role of Weapons in Abuses by Militants
The evidence shows that from the early 1980s until the ruthless crackdown by Indian government forces in 1992-93, Sikh militants engaged in a sustained pattern and practice of violations of humanitarian law. Militants frequently used such weapons as automatic rifles, grenades, and rockets in deliberate attacks on unarmed civilians.
Prior to the 1980s, militant groups mainly had access to relatively unsophisticated weaponry. The militants possessed little more than country-made weapons, 12-gauge shotguns, Enfield .303 rifles and, at best, a small number of Sten guns.(142) As detailed in Chapter 2, the large-scale introduction of more sophisticated weapons into South Asia began in 1979 with the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and the establishment by the U.S. of covert arms pipeline in which massive amounts of weaponry were funneled through the Pakistani isi to mujahidin leaders and fighters in the field. Large quantities of this U.S.-supplied, isi-controlled weaponry were illicitly siphoned off and diffused throughout the region, with some of it acquired by militant Sikhs.
While many factors contributed to the growing strength and resolve of Sikh fighters during the mid-1980s through the early 1990s, increased access to vast quantities of more advanced weapons allowed them to consolidate power through force. At the same time, the acquisition of large numbers of these weapons contributed to a dramatic increase in both the frequency and severity of abuses inflicted on the unarmed civilian population.
The human rights record of the Sikh militants might have deteriorated anyway, but the influx of automatic weapons, in particular, facilitated the commission of greater numbers of serious violations. Automatic weapons allowed the killing of more people. They permit extremely rapid fire, which is more likely to cause both death and collateral damage.(143) If militant Sikhs had continued to have access only to handguns or knives, it would have been difficult in practical terms to carry out the kinds of large-scale civilian killings described in this chapter. Typical means of militant attack–drive-by shootings, shooting sprees in public places, and opening fire on passengers on buses and trains–would not likely have resulted in such high numbers of casualties had automatic rifles not been used.
Access to large numbers of automatic weapons also allowed militants deliberately to instill terror in the civilian population at a level probably higher than would have been otherwise possible. This contributed both to the flight of many Hindus and Sikhs from Punjab, and to the reluctance on the part of many residents to oppose the militants politically. This latter point was strikingly evident in the militants’ ability to enforce election boycotts in 1991 and 1992 through threats of violence and selective shootings at campaign gatherings.
It is apparent from Arms Project interviews and a careful review of hundreds of press accounts of violations reportedly committed by Sikh militants since 1981, that there is a strong correlation between the number of civilians killed and the use of automatic rifles; as the use of Kalashnikovs increased, so did the number of civilian killings.
Information compiled by the Punjab Police on weapons seizures, weapons use, militant attacks and civilian casualties also reflects this correlation. Increased availability and use of Kalashnikovs corresponded to increased attacks and civilian killings. For example, from 1989 to 1990, Indian authorities claim that both the number of militant attacks, and the number of civilian killings by militants, more than doubled. Meanwhile, Indian authorities also claim that the number of incidents in which Kalashnikovs were used, and the number of Kalashnikovs allegedly seized, both nearly doubled.(144)
In sum, greater access by Sikh militants to more advanced weaponry during the last decade directly exacerbated the human rights situation in Punjab. It allowed militants to increase the frequency and severity of their attacks on the unarmed population, resulting in a greater number of civilian casualties, and permitted them to sustain a higher level of terror and control over the general population. The governments of Pakistan and the United States bear considerable responsibility for the arming of Sikh militants and the atrocities they have committed.
Although the Indian government’s crackdown in Punjab has largely crushed militant activity for the time being, arms are still widely dispersed among the populace. This weaponry could facilitate and fuel future conflict and abuses of human rights.(145)
July 18th, 2007 at 10:34 pm
listen to number 24. bhindranwala threatens to kill 5,000 hindus in an hour
http://www.khalistan-affairs.org/home/resources/audio.aspx
July 19th, 2007 at 8:17 am
pls brothers and sisters , whats the point of mentioning all this blog about sikh extremism…..remember there are hindu extremes as well ..they are just as bad and kill just as much…..
i must disagree with singh …the names of ram and other gods are in Bani envoke thses gods….first five gurus all prayed at hindu shrines and had belief in thses gods……..
also bani mentions about worshipping the way you feel best….. i don’t bani has ever disagreed with vedas or gita…the maessage is the same …self less service and pathway of devotion……….small reforms are there such as worship of bani ….(which a diety ) ..
ravi
July 19th, 2007 at 9:01 am
Singh is talking the usual monologue that most Khalistanis indulge in
totally ignores the thousands of inncents kileld before 1984
hiding the fact that the issue has nothing to do with human rights but to do with the SUPREMACY of the Sikhs as enunciated in the Anandpur resolution of the 1970’s
look in Punjab today
they are offering money to Hindu students to convert to Sikhism
they are attacking and beating with state power followers of various Deras and anyone who challenges their version of the true path
load of fascist bullcrap
July 19th, 2007 at 9:03 am
even for those in west london following the ealing southall by election you find these fascits opposing the Labour candidate on the sole grounds that he is a Hindu and that the MP for the area has to be a turban wearing baptised Sikh - and all this in an area which probanby ony has about 4% turban wearing baptised Sikhs !!
they then call others fascists based on caste lineage !??! WTF
July 19th, 2007 at 9:08 am
I am very distressed Ravi thinks that SIKHS are HINDUS! Sikhs will never be HINDUS. Sri Guru Nanak DEvi Ji rejected most of the hindu rituees, prasying to hiondu idols. Also 1 other story of Guru Nanak Dev Ji is when all fo the hindus very chuckign water towards the sun, Guru Ji laughed and started to chuck water at his crops. The hindus were shocked they said why are you doing this? Guru Ji replied that it is more worthwhiel using that water for a use and nto a ristualistic ceremony of “trying” to chuck water at the sun, believing it is the sun! Also all of you are trying to cuss Sant Baba Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindranwale ye? He was 1 of the greatest GurSikhs in this century! He stood up against the Indian Army, with 44 other Loving Sikhs against more than 100,000 army personal and helecopters and tanks! Bhindranwale enver ever harmed a inocent eprson, but the indian gov. shot the sikhs in the back! Who attacked whos temple? The indian army destroyed and burnt down the Sikh history room, which had many purtan Sri Guru GRanth Sahibs in there! They also aimed the bullets at the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji! Go to golden temple and you will see the bullets in the WALLS!
Thanks and home you will not cuss such a great shaheed!!
Khalistani Babbar Singh!
July 19th, 2007 at 1:13 pm
khalistani singh….
yes i know the story of the holy water and sun….. there is a message ……… even hindus who know gita and vedas know that the water will not reach the sun…..Guruji was against the rituals and dogmas that had crept into Hinduism… actually Guru Nanak was a true Hindu because he had read the Vedas and Gita and had understood that brahmins were not following them !!!!!!!!
Guruji stood for bhakti and seva again what the gita and vedas emphasize….. Hinduism had become corrupt…. gold was being offered to gods while poor starved…. people thought they could commit paap (sin) then wash in ganges…. people would follow culture and caste before religion…this is how sikhi started !!!!!!!!
guruji was not against hinduism - he was hindu himself - he was against the corruption, dogmas ,lies and rituals that brahmins did for money and their own bellies.
the brahims who worshipped the sun had become too entailed with rituals and routine , they had actually forgot true bhakti and service to others, they had become complacent and were practising a animism of paganistic beliefs - these are still practised into today…….
guru nanak never spoke against Gita or Vedas…. he reformed hinduism and opened peoples eyes!!!!! hindus welcomed the enlightment…
also seva , wand chako, simran all are hindu beliefs as well. simran - ram or waheguru- wand chako- help service to all- seva - of all parents and sangat.
i never cus any of our great historians or martyrs……..
sorry but i now realise the true message of bani ……like sikh sangat has said sikhism is nor hindu nor muslim nor sikh……… its a pathway to choose if you like……..
please also remember Hinduism in its true form it very different from - animism, paganism , fetishism and tribal beliefs - although all can be incorporated into our universal faith!!!!!!!!
ravi
July 19th, 2007 at 1:28 pm
people keep mentioning that bani rejects Vedas- not true …..it says in number of verses - read puranas, vedas and upanisads and even then you cannot be enlightened - meaning read these holy books but some still don’t follow the true pathway….. you can read a book - but if you don’t understand the meaning-
guru Granth ji also says - do penances, austereties, pilmilgrages and perform yagnas but you will still not learn - meaning doingthings for rituals is not worth while if you don’t know why its being done ——-
ravi
July 19th, 2007 at 1:38 pm
Babbar Singh,
The Nihang Singh Khalsa, the original Khalsa do not seem to think so. The claim themselves to be Hindus. It’s only Lahore Tat Khalsa Singh Sabhias who demand seperatist identity. And the irony is that they defined what ‘Sikhs’ are not on their own terms but as not Hindus, with their manifesto being Kahn Singh’s Ham Hindu Nahin. The Amritsar branch had no issues. It was only because of Anglo-Protestant eductation that the Lahore faction became separatist.
Satguru Nanak followed all Hindu sanskaras and rituals, as did all the Gurus. They all wore the janeu (and to say that Nanak didn’t is blind belief in Gurdwara propaganda - the Guru denounces it in bani but he was 9 at the time. Bani doesn’t tell us what happened after. Bhai Mani Singh’s Janam Sakhi makes it clear) and married around the fire using Brahmanas, and in accordance with astrological timings (the anand karaj was made up by the Niranakaris in the mid 1800s). Baba Nanak also performed his father’s shraadha. And learned pandits throwing water to the sun know what they were doing. We don’t even know when this story came into hagiography and if it happened.
July 19th, 2007 at 1:40 pm
Btw, what about the beautiful frescos in the Gurdware that Sikhs themselves whitewashed because they had pictures of devi devte? How fascist can one be? That was a callous destruction of history, no less that the Taliban’s destruction of the Buddha statue.
July 19th, 2007 at 1:42 pm
bani mentions idols - it does not say don’t worship idols - it says you must know why you are doing such things…..
by blessing the devotional service to god you are rewarded….. both Gita and Bani talk of demigods- they are lesser gods that people pray to- naag devas , matas and other demonic roops- why pray to these when their is the Lord god ——— these lesser gods are still at mercy of the ultimate Lord…..
Guru Bani teaches uncondional love for our Lord - the names of this Lord is writtan in Bani as ‘ Ram, Neelkanth, Shyam, Krishna , Gopal, Gopala , Vishnu, Narayana, Brahma , brahm, murari to mention a few…..
Gur bani teaches simran- close eyes and reach for the Lord- again all these names are mentioned including shiva , this proves that the bani is not against Hinduism but its corruption that has happened by the common folk !!!!!!!
ravi
July 19th, 2007 at 1:49 pm
Khalistani Singh…what makes me laugh is that most of the khalistani supporters among Sikh youth wouldnt even want to LIVE in a khalistan if it was ever formed. In this way, you strike me as very similar to Muslims…you harp on about your religions but when it comes to actually facing the prospect of living in a counrty dominated by your religion you will conveniently come up with a plethora of excuses. My Sikh friends who argue for Khalistan point out how they wouldnt want to live in Punjab/a nelwy formed khalistan becuase they wouldnt want to squat to go to the toilet and they get bored “in the pind”…these are AMRITDHARI SIKHS BTW. In the same way, I have Muslim friends who go on about sharia this sharia that…and yet engage in behaviour taht UNDER Sharia would have them stoned to death. Ask any of these to relocate to Saudi Arabi where sharia is the de-facto rule of law and again, you get convenient excuses being made.
You think Bindrawale (note how I didnt call him “Sant”…becuase he is FAR from being so) didnt kill any innocents?..you think that under his command and under his ethos thousands of Innocent Hindus WERENT killed?..you think the army faught against him because he was a nice man?..also, what a fallacy…100,000 army personell versus 44 sikhs?…Im presuming you have let khalistani propaganda go to your head. Im not going to say anything about this apart from advising you to let your brains work out the logistics behind your claims…
Also, not that ive heard it yet (and i presume it will be in Punjabi/Hindi so I probably wont understand it anyways) but if the link to the Bindrawale speeches really DOES indicate that he said he would kill 5000 Hindus in an hour…then your point about him being such a nice dude is made mute.
From what ive read, much of the damage done to the Har Mandir Sahib was done BY Sikh gunfire.
July 19th, 2007 at 2:50 pm
khalistani fool….the fact that you have the audacity to come onto a Hindu website and call bindrawale a SANT when he was nothing but a coward and well…an arsehole bewilders me…its eveil people like him who cause so much crap in this world.
July 19th, 2007 at 3:39 pm
Namaste Everyone
Can I ask everyone posting on this thread to refrain from using abusive and improper language please. We’ve had to delete 64 posts so far from people on all sides of the argument on account of swearing, incitement of racial and religious hatred, threats of violence and even kidnapping.
We encourage free speech and frank debates amongst all our readers whether they are modernists, liberals, traditionalists, Islamists, Christian right-wing fundamentalists, neo-Nazis, Socialists, Communists, Fascists, Gandhians, Anarchists, Government spooks, Khalistanis, RSS/VHP/hinduunity.org fan-clan or of any other mental persuasion that we’ve had the audacity to leave out . However we have to remind everyone that this is a PG rated website and we’ll have to lock this thread if it continues with any more 18+ language.
Thank you and please come again
Moderator
July 19th, 2007 at 5:07 pm
Khalistani Singh u r distressed by ravi the nut eh, well many Hindus r also “distressed” by many sikhs calling bhindrenwale a sant.
anyway u and sharma r more similar than u think, both r of the braindead type, only difference is sharma can’t get out of being servile to sikhs while u can’t get out of having some superiority complex over Hindus.
But funny thing is, now many Hindus consider both of u as the loony kind although u may both hate each other, neway karma is a biatch and it will catch up with u lot.
July 19th, 2007 at 6:03 pm
I am Jat Sikh who considers himself Hindu. For me being Hindu is a logical step to fulfilling Sikh background. I totlaly reject all Singh Sabha accretions which passes for modern Sikhism. Anyone may disagree but that is my choice. I see Nihangs and Udasis as the original sikhs (notice the small s). Modern Sikhism (notice the large S) tries to emulate Christianity (dying out), Islam (nemesis just on the horizon), and Marxism (Khushwant Singh is a Lenin). That is why Sikhs in UK are such a mess and their women are notorious as loose alcoholics (this told to me by the son of a leading minister of the African Caribbean Evangelical Alliance) who will drink more than most men and do the most lewd lapdancing acts on anyone just to show their “independence”. This is a prelude to Khalistan, which will be an all male state as its demographic imbalance (Punjab has highest number of female foetucide, so much for gender quality in monotheistice fake Sikhism) leads to it being a homosexual playground on a par with Thailand, as all its females follow the lead of their “sisters” in UK and get converted to Islam, leaving for new life in Pakistan. Cut off from its Vedic roots, Sikhism produces a vacuum culture whose only reference points are whisky, chicken, and Bhangra. Families are cut apart as the follow empty traditions. With no spiritual values they take refuse in Nazi style Punjabi ethnocentrism, and how Punjabis are superior to meek Gujaratis, just as Sikhs are superior to passive Hindus. This does not of course stop them dating every other community with the result that one now sees young Sikh men with a pint in one hand and the disease ridden Vicki Pollard chav in the other, while their “sisters” are pushing pushchairs of multi-coloured offspring, giro cheque in pocket, fag in mouth, belting down the mobile “But I thought Mustafa loved me”. At the same time anyone deemed “different” is treated mercilessly in this contradictory fascist Sikh-Punjabi culture. That is what monotheims does. It tries blanket uniformity and ends up destorying itself. Polytheism accepts variety and accomodates. Granth Sahib and Dasam Granth have mention of Rama, krishna, Vishnu, etc. That is what gave Sikhs strength once. It was the lack of exlcusivity that made Sikhs unique. Acknowledging this will bring Sikh ideas back to their spiritual and cultural roots. However if any Sikhs want to be separate, follow the one jealous angry Christian-islamic god, that is fine. But it should be choice on all sides. I have made my choice based primarily on observations of how the dutifl rush to the gurudwara on Sunday, but are the same people who are seen in the most unspiritual of places almost every night.
July 20th, 2007 at 8:21 am
these are names of Hindu Gods in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji-
Aram Ram
Banbari
Bhagwanta
vasudeva
damodar
deva
Gopala
Hari
Govind
Isar
jagivan
jagan
jagidishar
krishna
krishna murari
krishna mudhahari
madho
mohan
nar-hare
narayana
prabhu
pratipala
ram
rama
sri dhar
swami
shiva
shristi nath
thakur
vishnu
vidhanta
these were mostly in hyms asking these gods to give peace and humility to mankind Guru Arjan dev (1563-1606)
sholaka from Bani: (2/1/4) 1st Guru.
‘Guru is Shiva, Guru is Vishnu, Guru is brahma , Guru is shiva’s consort Parvati, Guru is Vishnu’s consort Laxmi, Guru is Brahma’s consort Saraswati’.
Points of interst
ravi
July 20th, 2007 at 8:26 am
Prayer by Guru Arjun dev ji (1563-1606)
‘I am Nor Hindu Nor Muslmaaan, My body and soul belongs to him who is God of the Muslim and Lord of the Hindus’.
Perfectly said by Guruji…… God is one ….. but he does not want to have dogmas and boxes of what he is….universal god he follows.
Ravi
July 20th, 2007 at 9:57 am
Harish Duggirila….. i am not to comment on your words…..
my path teaches humility, kindness and respect……..
Prabhu Chaitnaya says’ I am lower than low, God is Supreme’…..
i am what i am and sorry you will not change my thought pattern ….
harish pls contemplate on foul words used by you !!!!!!!
July 20th, 2007 at 3:24 pm
what your path teaches is to arse lick those who don’t like u, your path also teaches u to rant and rave when exposed of ur ignorance about history, you are the clown who thought Marathas fought for themselves while sikhs saved us and the clown who thought Karthikeya and Murugan were different deities and “South Indian Gods”, listen you ignorant prick first read some history and scripture and then talk, and yes u r a loony going by ur nonsense.
July 21st, 2007 at 1:49 pm
So it has taken us 84 postings to find out that SIKHS don’t want to be classed as Hindu’s and some Hindu’s want to kiss Sikhs and make them Hindu’s…. as me old retired mate JB once said “what a lot of hot air” … if the Sikhs now define their Identity by “we are not hindus” then let them… no use worrying about ‘em… and no use worrying about the great “Hindu” nation in India - most of them don’t like us NRI Hindu’s anyway… lets do what Sonya has suggested… make the UK Hindu Nation strong and united and then we can take on those who wish us harm if we need to… the SIKHs have their karma and if you energetic Hindu’s feel so bad about making them part of the Hindu religion then the best them is start marrying sikh girls and then taking it from there… far more effective ta ta for now NRI-BS
July 21st, 2007 at 8:13 pm
Well most of us actually knew Sikhs are not Hindus before this article was even posted.
I wouldnt want to call a group of people that eat beef as Hindus. But some good points raised on this thread.
Sudip
July 21st, 2007 at 9:22 pm
One good thing the the Sikh right wing extremists have done is that they have destroyed many myths like “Sikhs saved Hindus or they saved the whole of India” because now everyone really knows the real truth when checking the facts that none of it was true but just over hype. If they had kept quiet they probably would have got away with the myths even more longer as Hindus wouldn’t have questioned them but now that’s not the case Now anyone with any common sense can see cleary why Aurangzeb sent only a local governor Wazir Khan to put down the rebellion of Guru Gobind Singh while he himself took the whole might of the Mughal army which was the most powerful army in Asia at the time down south to fight the Hindu Maharatas who finally destroyed him and the Mughals later on.That shows that the myth of the ‘cowardly’ Hindu is false and he is the most dangerous when it comes to war.So they can go making their fake new monotheist religion and fake history but unfortunately in these times its hard to getaway with it as information is at the tip of peoples fingers and truth will always prevail in the end .
July 21st, 2007 at 10:26 pm
oi u tw*ats, dont you understand? sikhs are not hindus! we dont do any idol worshipping, we dont bow down to kali mah and dos other statues! We are in the hands of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji! Ow ye also we dont drink cow piss! Ow ye and Bhindranwale was a Sant, he preached the word of the Guru’s that is what a saint does! He did bhagti, and what have you done? him and his few singhs fought aghainst so many hindu army perosneel! The attack wasnt against bhindranwale himself, it was against the whole sikh nation! Y was 37 saroops in the sikh history room burnt down by the army? Name me a place and time when bhindranwale ordered the killings of innocents? And dont say the bus, because we all know that was done by blkcats who worked for the hindu police! You hindus have always tried to say these great sikhs were hindus, becuase we are the only ones that stuck up for oursevlves and have got a rep! Unlike you cowards! Long live Sant baba jarnail Singh Ji khalsa Bhindranwale!!!!
July 21st, 2007 at 10:41 pm
khalistani is this you talking or the bottle you been drinking all day talking because everyone here apart from Ravi Sharma is saying Sikhs ain’t good enough to be Hindus.You can say Long Live Bhinderwale but he’s dead by the way just like the fake khalistanti properganda and maybe the drink is giving you delusions…
July 21st, 2007 at 10:42 pm
the bus incident was done by blackcats?
ok, then entire 1984 riots was done by garden gnomes.
by the way mr. santa……no one is calling you hindu other than this joker named ravi sharma who is probably a sikh.
i dont want anything to do with thick skulled g**s like you and your one monotheist god.
July 21st, 2007 at 10:43 pm
khalistani singh the only +w@t here is u, no1 cares about whether sikhs r hindus or not, only losers like ravi sharma and scum like u.
keep running around that book, bathing and fanning that book, growing ur hair, as if all those empty rituals r going to save u, bookworshippers.
hehehehe u guys stuck up, maybe thats why gobind singh was kissing upto mughals and got land in nanded while marathas were kicking mughal ass, u guys couldn’t even take delhi despite living in the neighbourhood while the far away Marathas did.
keep boasting about this fake martialness, last i heard u clowns never say crap to our faces in toronto, it’s all e-boasting, u shudn’t either cuz both the clowns on sikh forums and we knw tht its the tamils who run things here while u fake “martial veerji’s” hide in ur gurudwaras making fake boasts on ur pc’s.
July 22nd, 2007 at 9:02 am
I see that the intelligensia from the Sikh Community has come into the fray… with wonderful people like mr Khalis…Singh and wonderful Hindu’s like Ravi Sharma… sure is adding a bit of humour to my Sunday morning chai… carry on this is better then seeing which programme the anti-Hindu BBC are going to fake next…
July 22nd, 2007 at 9:05 am
Khalistani Singh, I think we can see the success of Sikh separatist philiosophy in that girls from such families are usually binge drinking, show the sexual restraint of rabbits in breeding season, wearing hijab because their Muslim boyfriends buy them imitation plastic jewelry, or are frequenting the money Asian evengelical churches that say they can cure their “problems”.
July 22nd, 2007 at 8:54 pm
jat nihang mahadev, i dont think they care that their women are being taken by muslims left and right. i believe these muslims marry their women in the khalistani gurudwaras and they don’t have any problems with it. in fact they’re quite happy and have formed organizations like the World Sikh-Muslim Federation.
July 23rd, 2007 at 9:39 am
Come on people, cant ridicule sikh’s just because of one idiot on here
You also cant educate the ignorant, so let him go back to his bottle of famous grouse and being a proud internet-warrior
July 23rd, 2007 at 1:53 pm
Someone mentioned about the clown ramu and his youtube antics, check this out:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=gci0l_7sSig
hehehehe, khalistani cyber warriorism at it’s best, losers don’t even have the guts to show their faces but call themselves “Singh” and “Martial Race”, ya this should really show how “martial” they are.
July 23rd, 2007 at 4:54 pm
I’m sorry but as a Sikh i think many people are confused. Firstly, Sikhism is NOT a branch of Hinduism nor does it stem from Hinduism. It is a separate religion altogether and as Sikhs we see ourselves as separate from Hindus.
Also Sant Jarnail Singh Ji Bhindranwale was a sant and for those of you who dont know what that means I suggest you go loolk it up.
Also people are on here talking about Sikhs and Sikhi but do any of you know what a real Sikh is? A real Sikh is not someone who drives a BMW, with loud bhangra music, eats tandoori chicken and goes out drinking.
A REAL Sikh is someone who has taken Amrit, who follows the Guru’s Hukam, who see’s God in everyone and who stands up for what is right. Alot of people on here are totally clueless, so I suggest that before you say anything you get some knowledge on what you’re talking about, otherwise dont say anything at all.
Rav Kaur Sahota
July 23rd, 2007 at 8:29 pm
“I’m sorry but as a Sikh i think many people are confused. Firstly, Sikhism is NOT a branch of Hinduism nor does it stem from Hinduism”
Then what did the sikhs evolve from? Did they suddenly fall out of the sky with their religion and culture already formed? All sikh beliefs have been borrowed from Hinduism!
“A REAL Sikh is someone who… see’s God in everyone and who stands up for what is right”
This is Sanatana Dharma and the sikhs have learned and borrowed this from our great Religion - they have just given it a new name like Amrit.
Rav Kaur Sahota, you make statments like sikhs see God in everyone and then you and your khalistani friends go on to degrade Hindus just to cause provocation amongst us…surely you wouldn’t treat people like that if you really see God in them..?
Look at sikhs without their beliefs and culture borrowed from Sanatana Dharma, and you will have nothing more than whisky drinking, Hindu hating, banghra dancing, Chicken eating coconuts!
You khalistanis must learn not to spit in the same plate you eat off!
July 23rd, 2007 at 8:53 pm
Political change comes to the subcontinent every about 200 years. Last time this change happened in 1947. The idea of Sikh homeland or Tamil homeland or other homelands in the subcontinent will eventually happen. The only thing the Indian politicians with foresight must remember is that the change must happen within the Indian constitution and not outside of it. This type of change in the next 100 years or so will ultimately affect Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Nepal and Bhutan as well.
Hanji
July 23rd, 2007 at 9:14 pm
Many people here have already said that sikh’s ain’t Hindus, did you read the posts before you posted?
We know what Sant means and Bhindrenwale was no Sant, if he was then Osama Bin Laden would qualify for the same honor.
Ya same goes for Sikhs banging on about Hindus, why don’t you guys get over your racism (one only has to look at sikh forums to see crap about madrasis, bhaiyyas, bahmans and the alleged genetic superiority of Sikhs and their “martialness”) and read up some history before u spout nonsense about Hindus and Bahmans.
Like I said, don’t hide behind ur pc’s if u spport Khalistan, go down and fight like the Tamils are fighting for Tamil Eelam and I dare any Khalistani to step into Scarborough and say this nonsense to our faces and see what happens, all I ever see are cyber boasts and publishing nonsense in Punjabi papers here about Hindus. One of these days these stupid lot will get such a beating from the “madrasis” (aka Eelam Tamils) for uttering racist bs, that they will shut up for the rest of their life.
July 23rd, 2007 at 9:24 pm
can u khalistani idiots read? no one here is saying sikhs are hindus.
i think its sikhs who have some fetish for that statement, you keep repeating it over and over again.
i dont want absolutely anything to do with you female child killing khalistani terrorist idiots. my religion has a tradition going back thousands of years and we dont need sikhism or sikhs to survive.
July 23rd, 2007 at 10:36 pm
I would like to say to the author, if you are going to tell a story, please tell the complete story.
1) You mention ‘Operation Bluestar’ was carried out to flush out a large band of heavily armed separatists who had forcibly occupied and fortified the temple premises, led by Jarnail Singh Bhrindanwale.
Any reason why then, that 42 other Gurdwaras were raided simultaneously as Sri Harmandar Sahib was attacked. The question which comes to mind is that was Sant Jarnail Singh Ji, the so called person who the Indian government wanted caught and dead, hiding in all 42 Gurdwaras in Punjab?
2) You say ‘At the root of the problem was the feeling, real or imagined, in certain sections of the Sikh population that they would lose their religion and identity in a democratic country full of Hindus’.
Where is this democratic country you talk of? From August 1982 till November 1983, 170,000 Sikhs gave themselves up for voluntary arrest as a protest for freedom. These were people fighting for freedom and equality. Even to this day, Sikhs are still not recognised by the Indian Constitution - what a joke.
It is not a question of whether Khalistan will or will not happen. It is just a question of when…
Sikhism is completely seperate from Hinduism. I leave you with a quote from Sri Guru Arjun Dev Ji…
“I am not a Hindu, nor am I a Muslim.
My body and breath of life belong to Allah - to Raam - the God of both.”
July 23rd, 2007 at 11:22 pm
rav kaur sahota….quite the contrary..I think the Hindus on this forum tend to speak from experience and are VERY knowledgable…the foolish “khalistanis” that I know that spit on the India flag and take part in vile protests outside Indian embassies, are all amritdhari Sikhs….go to the gurudwara regularly…preach the philosophies of Sikhism..etc etc…
You say that REAL Sikhs are those who have taken amrit and see God in everyone…well…quite obviously we arent talking about THESE ppl…we are talking about the wannabe khalistanis who predominantly and ironically live OUTSIDE of Punjab India most often in UK and Canada yet who couldnt phathom living in a newly created Khalistan if ever it was to be created.
We all know what sant means. And Bindrawale was a cowardly terrorist. If, Rav, You dont know what a terrorist or coward is…look it up. He was far from being a sant. A Sant doesnt elicit the killing of thousands of people (in his case instructing Sikhs to kill 5000 Hindus in a short space of time).
So Rav…I suggest you read the posts above and posts from past issues and topics and see for yourself that the Hindus that contribute to this website are knowledgeable, educated and intelligent.
July 24th, 2007 at 2:16 am
“It is not a question of whether Khalistan will or will not happen. It is just a question of when…”
u losers keep dal f**ting sitting in canada or the UK. the fact of the matter is that khalistanis are a cowardly bunch of e***chs who couldn’t get the state they’ve been wanting for decades now.
one only has to see the severely skewered sex ratio of punjab, 700 women to 1000 men. alcoholism, drugs, female foeticide is rampant. soon khalistanis will resort to bum-banditry.
“Sikhism is completely seperate from Hinduism.”
you i***t, no one here said its the same. do sikhs have such an inferiority complex that they have to reaffirm this all the time? is this pre-programmed into your brains before you were born? i dont care whether you’re hindu or not. we have more important things to worry about.
July 24th, 2007 at 2:18 am
gurjeet singh you clown, keep dreaming of khalistan, it’s all a big “khali (empty)” and “stan (place)” stuck in the minds of some senile m***ns sitting abroad, many of whom don’t even have any plans to move to this imagined land of milk and honey, let alone fight for it.
is sikhs ain’t recognised, where do u think u r getting ur minority privileges in Bharat from?
listen u clown, many Hindus have already said “sikhs are not Hindus”, are you losers blind or do you have a fetish and get off on being told that you are Hindu?
I just don’t understand how someone could be such brainless m***ns, even the article said sikhs can choose their own identity.
The real reason all these clowns come on here and repeat “sikhs are not Hindus” is because their whole identity is built on this single statement, they have nothing else to show of their faith it seems, even when the majority of Hindus had already said u ain’t Hindu, it seems it never gets through to your thick skulls and in a way u like to imagine Hindus begging you to accept that you are Hindus because then ur bloated egos can stay bloated, well guess what “SIKHS ARE NOT HINDU!!!” and the next i***t who repeats the same thing towards Hindus is a confirmed to be brain dead, there now go nurse ur ego’s which must have burst like balloons upon hearing that statement.
July 24th, 2007 at 9:02 am
Many thanks for another well-written, informative and balanced piece on a very relevant topic. Shame about the last paragraph though, which does let it down and detracts somewhat from the general thrust of the article. The comment about RSS may or may not be accurate - that is for greater minds than mine to discuss; however, I personally felt that its inclusion was unnecessary and inappropriate.
July 24th, 2007 at 9:37 am
Lets have a quick trip back….
“…in future, the Congress shall accept no constitution which does not meet with the satisfaction of the Sikhs” (The Lahore session of the Congress Party. December 31, 1929)
This all changed when the British left India and the Indian constitution was written but Sikhs refused to sign it in the house of parliament because under Amendment (Dhara) 25 it declared Sikhism as part of Hinduism.
In the 1980’s the chance was given as a last resort by Sant Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindranwale…
“Do you wish to keep us with you or not? If you want to keep us with you give us our equal rights. If you do not want to keep us with you, give us our land. We have given 93 heads and you have given seven. If there is some hill corresponding to seven, keep it for yourselves, and leave the rest for us.”
He talks of heads given in the fight for Independence. But the answer to that question was given with the attack not against ‘extremists’ but against the heart of the Sikhism. The choice was made… Khalistan Zindabaad.
July 24th, 2007 at 11:40 am
thats what you call history from the Jullunder Junction history books LOL
Can you please provide proof of the 93 out of 100 heads that the ignorant so called sant postulated ?
Another total lie and myth
There were Sikh representatives negotiating at indpendenc - astonishing how that has been conveniently negated ?!
Did not Tara Singh at one time merge the Akalis with the Congress ?
So stop bleating the victim syndrome - the issue is really about an attempted fascist takeover of Punjab which has failed and will continue to fail
July 24th, 2007 at 2:33 pm
hahahahaha sikhs gave 93 heads and Hindus 7 in independence, that’s gotta be the world’s biggest joke, but brainwashed zombies will believe anything.
gurjeet singh please do name all the sikh freedom fighters that were shot, hung or died in any other way fighting the British (please do note Bhagat Singh was an atheist and was not a Sikh).
I can think of Kartar Singh and Uddham Singh, maybe you can enlighten us with more.
Also if you guys were such patriots, how come ur less than 2% minority was in such high numbers in the British colonial army.
The reality was that Sikhs and Gurkhas were considered British loyalists all along after they supressed 1857 and recruited in high numbers into the army, this is also admitted by Khushwant Singh.
Meanwhile I will name some Hindu freedom fighters that sacrificed their lives:
1) Vasudev Balwant Phadke
2) Vanchinathan Iyer
3) Madanlal Dhingra
4) Alluri Sitaramaraju
5) Ram Prasad Bismil
6) Chandrashekar Azad
7) Damodar Chapekar
8) BalKrishna Chapekar
9) Shivaram Rajguru
10) Sukhdev
11) Lala Lajpat Rai
12) Khudiram Bose
13) Surya Sen
14) Bhaga Jatin
15) Pritilata Waddedar
16) Sohan Lal Pathak
17) Jatin Das
These are just some I can count off the top of my head, I am sure there are many others, but I think it would be good if you could name yours and enlighten us all how 93% of freedom fighters were Sikhs.
July 24th, 2007 at 3:20 pm
“Firstly, Sikhism is NOT a branch of Hinduism nor does it stem from Hinduism. It is a separate religion altogether and as Sikhs we see ourselves as separate from Hindus. ”
Definitely true because I just read a book by Erich Von Daniken called Sikhs from Outerspace where he shows the Sikhs landed in spaceship in Punjab.
July 24th, 2007 at 3:22 pm
“It is not a question of whether Khalistan will or will not happen. It is just a question of when…”
Well its not even a question of when but where.The North Pole maybe a good destination for a start because you want find Hindus there.
July 24th, 2007 at 3:25 pm
“Political change comes to the subcontinent every about 200 years. Last time this change happened in 1947. The idea of Sikh homeland or Tamil homeland or other homelands in the subcontinent will eventually happen.”
Yeh right and Elvis was seen walking on the moon.Provide the evidence of your theories.Thanks
July 24th, 2007 at 5:10 pm
Just read the history of the subcontinent.
Hanji
July 24th, 2007 at 6:29 pm
“Just read the history of the subcontinent.”
Just provide the evidence.Thanks
July 24th, 2007 at 7:22 pm
To Khalistanis on this forum. The massacre of Sikhs after Indira Gandhi’s asassination was done by the secular Marxist Congress Party. I should know because my in-laws in Delhi were almost the victims. The same Congress Party organised massacre of Brahmans following Mahatma Gandhi’s assassination in 1948. The same Congress Party, namely Rajiv Gandhi and Zail Singh, built up Bhindranwale asa force.
If Sikhs do not want to be Hindus fine. Its personal choice. But for any Sikhs that want to re-own their HIndu roots they should be free to. Alos Sikhs cannot be academically incoherent and dishonest by disallowing Hindus from owning what is rightfully thiers, namey Granth Sahib. And by the way Dasam Granth is authentic and not some Brahmanist plot. The attitude of Sikhs to HIndus is like the early Christian church towards the Judaism from which they had sprung. Hence anti-Semitism is inhernet part of Christianity (and Islam). For neo-Sikhs/Islamo-Sikhs, Hindus replace the Jew as the scapegoat.
Why the fuss? After all most Asian evangelical churches in UK are run by ex-Sikhs and even have langar. Check it yourself every Sunday at Hounslow. So if you wnat to be separate fine, but this New Life Masih Garh is but one result of your actions. You try and be monotheist, be my guest. But that ghost ship will come to shore at the nearest Christian and Islamic focal point.
Modern Sikhism is a mirror version of Christianity. That is why so many Sikhs convert. Others fill their lives with drugs, porn and drink as neo-Sikhism offers no spiritual fulfillment. Look at it any Friday and Saturday night and watch the sluts that Bhindranwale’s legacy has produced.
Nanak said “no Hindu, no Muslim”. So how does that equal Sikh. If Guruji appared today he would not be welcome at any gurudwara as all the Saudi funded Khalistanis would call him a stupid old man and kick him out.
May the sword of Durga smash Sikh separatism and Glassy Junction with it.
July 25th, 2007 at 11:33 am
Contribution of Sikhs who are less than 2% of Indian population , in the freedom struggle of India against the British.
PUNISHED - TOTAL - SIKHS - % OF SIKHS
Hanged: 121 93 77%
Life Imprisonment: 2646 2147 81%
Jallianwala Bagh
massacre: 1300 799 62%
Book source : “History of Indian National Congress - ASIN: B0000E7LBW”.
July 25th, 2007 at 11:42 am
For a more depth report on what happened in 1984 as the author wrote about you can see the Kristallnacht report which was launched in the British Houses of Parliament. It was also cited in a European Union motion as well as other reports in India.
http://solarider.org/dld/Kristallnacht.pdf
July 25th, 2007 at 12:19 pm
Usually these Khalistanis make it look like that suddenly everything started from 1984 onwards but anyone who knows the truth know very well that how many innocent people due to these Khalistani Fascists had to die.
“Taken from 1992 booklet, “The Bleeding Punjab: A Report to the Nation,” a joint publication of Surkh Rekha and Inqualabi Jantak Leeh. Editors: Amolak Singh and Jaspal Jassi.
The Khalistani terrorists and their apologists, in a bid to hoodwink the masses, often keep on harping that “their Sikh struggle is not directed against any race, religion or community” but it is for “smashing the chains of slavery from around the necks of sikhs” and is directed against “the tyrannical brahmanical rulers at the centre.” But as the saying goes: the deeds are stronger than the words, the hundreds of cold-blooded mass murders of Hindus and ordinary toiling masses, their venomous communal tirade against the Hindus and Nirankaris (an off shoot of Sikhism), the forcible closure of all Nirankari Bhawans throughout the state, a spree of lootings, extortions, rapes and beatings let loose on the common people, the various fascist edicts aimed at crippling the democratic rights, aspirations and the lives of people of Punjab and numerous such other acts, all deride their pious exhortations. Let us examine them, albeit briefly, through their own words and deeds.More here
http://iref.homestead.com/Khalistan.html
July 25th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
Jeeta
you still havent provided a source to your cr**y postulation
I have read moronic figures like 80-90% of sacrifices were made by Sikhs
These very conveniently ignore huge events like the Quit India movement of 1942 where thousands were killed, numerous uprisings all across India by Tribals and other groups, The Bengal revolutionaries from the Anushilan Samiti, Yugantar etc etc
It includes the Akali movement which was NOT for freedom but for control of the Gurudwaras
The Jallianwala massacare was the murders of innocents in cold blood - not an uprising as such
It also ignores the huge uprisings by hundreds and thousands of people acorss northern India in 1857 (but includes the Namdhari uprising in a part of Punjab of about 300-400 men a few decades later)
just because some unpar racist so called Sant said so it doesn’t make it true
July 25th, 2007 at 2:48 pm
Gurjeet Singh I asked you to name them, why can’t you do that?
Yep Akali movement was for Gurudwara control and did not have anything to do with the freedom movement.
Anyone can pull figures out of their arse.
I clearly named Hindu freedom fighters that were either shot/hung, killed or committed suicide after killing/attacking British officers, if sikhs were in such high % then why don’t you give us some names then?
This once again shows the kind of crackpot sh*t that many western sikhs thrive on, a less than 2% community supposedly made 90% of the sacrifices and brought Bharat independence, but when asked to name some of these men/women silence reigns.
You still haven’t answered my other question, if sikhs were such patriots, then how did ur less than 2% community become such a huge part of the British colonial army?
July 25th, 2007 at 2:54 pm
gurjeet singh is a typical khalistani, has an IQ that resembles that of the trees and air around him.
if sikhs were so patriotic i want to know why they enrolled in colonial british army to put down 1857 first war of independence.
why they gloat about serving colonial british army in both world wars? why the soldiers that fired on sikhs themselves were sikhs under general dyer?
July 25th, 2007 at 3:11 pm
More Hindu freedom fighters:
1) Mahadeo Ranade
2) Basudeo Hari Chapekar
3) Kanailal Datt
4) Satyendranath Bose
5) Charu Charan Bose
6) Birendranath Datta Gupta
7) Aranta Laxman Kanhere
8) Krishna Gopal Kanre
9) Vinayak Narayan Deshpande
10) Kashiram
And the list goes on and on, check here for more:
http://groups.msn.com/hindu-history/rawarchives.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=281&LastModified=4675504084199221967
A warning to sikh crackpots, not all “singhs” are Sikhs there, plenty of Hindu Singhs, the location, acts committed are all given for each of the Hutatma’s (martyrs).
I would appreciate if a list of names of Sikh martyrs in independence movement is given, this is their chance to prove to a lot of people sikhs brought Bharat independence and comprised 90% of the freedom fighters, hope all the “veerji’s” and “martial singhs” on sikh forums take up the challenge.
July 25th, 2007 at 4:40 pm
I think Sikhs are an essential part of our life in India. They are a home grown religious sect as close in affinity to Hindus as possible. So it is right and proper to say that Sikhs and Hindus cannot be separated. Having said that we must not forget that across our border there resides a nation who is bent upon creating a separate Sikh state in order to take revenge for Bangladesh. It is well documented that it was Pakistan who suggested that the Khalistani flag would be hoisted simultabeously from Golden Tremple as well as Nankana Sahib and Pakistan would at once recognise them as a separate independent Khalistan state. The eyes of the Sikhs living in the UK were shinning. They had printed Khalistani passports and even currency. Thanks to the timely action by the millitary that the situation was brought under control. but not before a lot of human blood got spilled unnecessarily.How can you now expect these Khalistani Sikhs to come back and say we are not a separate nation. Devinder Thakur
July 25th, 2007 at 6:59 pm
The Indian government should just ban all these khalistanis to even enter India then you’ll see them begging outside the Indian High Commission for a Visa just like the Prime Minister of Khalistan Jagjit Singh Chauhan did and then the BJP Hindu ‘Bahman’ Government felt sorry for him and many other ‘brave’ khalistanis in.
July 26th, 2007 at 5:23 am
Jason
Here are the time periods. They are all related to the important rulers of whole of the subcontinent. No one ruler has ever ruled the entire subcontinent in its entire history. Even the British did not.
Maurya Dynasty 321-184 B.C.
Kushan Dynasty 48-182 A.D.
Gupta Dynasty 390-550 A.D.
Vardhana Dynasty 560-647 A.D.
Gazni 997-1206 A.D.
Slave Khilji Dynasty 1206-1316 A.D.
Tughlak 1320-1351 A.D.
Lodhi Dynasty 1351-1526 A.D.
Mughal Dynasty 1526-1707 A.D.
Maratha Dynasty 1649-1748 A.D.
Peshwa Dynasty 1708-1818 A.D.
Mughal fragmentation till 1857 A.D.
British rule 1774-1947 A.D.
Multi-nation rule in the subcontinent 1947-todate.
Why the mighty dynasties fell and why there is a pattern, is a question historians are still debating. What the future is going to bring will totally depend on the present and future politicians or rules of this land.
If one thinks that the political map is going to remain the same as we see it today, is seriously mistaken. If the political map of Europe can change, as has changed in the past 70 years, the subcontinent is not going to be an exception in future.
I hope the dates and the periods mentioned above make you interested in the study of the history of the subcontinent.
Respectfully
Hanji
July 27th, 2007 at 10:18 am
another comic book rendering of Indian history
most of those groups above sought and fought for the control of the entire subcontinent and the natural boundaries of INdia
not only political forices but religiosu authorities talk of the land as a single entity
eg the Shankracharyas establishing thir maths in different corners of India
the feeling in the medival times that the river Attock was the border of India
the civilisational conflict with Islam left two Muslim majority states in the subcontinent and one secular Hindu majority state - it now seems very unliekely that we shall see either furthe merger or disintergration again (unless possibly in Pakistan)
There is no point trying to doctor history to justify a seperate Khalistan
July 27th, 2007 at 11:45 am
this was a pretty good post by sikhsangat,
The Guru Granth Sahib contains around 15,028 of references to Hindu concepts and the names of Hindu gods.
A near-exact count is given in K.P. Agrawala: Adi Shrî Gurû Granth Sâhib kî Mahimâ (Hindi: “The greatness of the original sacred Guru scripture”), p.2, and in Ram Swarup: “Hindu roots of Sikhism”, Indian Express,
The name of the Hindu god Shri Ram, is recited 2,400 times, (the gods name whose constant repetition leads to salvation).
Hari (Vishnu) over 8,300 times, 630 times by Guru Nanak alone,
Parabrahman, 550 times, Omkara, (the primeval sound of OM) 400 times.
Please note the names of countless other Hindu gods are also mentioned and are one and the same.
In contrast the name Mohammed is never mentioned and the name allah is used but a couple of times, merely as an example. It is interesting to note that the Granth itself contains banis from seven of the sikh gurus, two muslim Sufis, but EIGHTEEN Hindu saints and pandits.
The religious source of Sikhism is Hinduism, Sikhism is a tradition developed within Hinduism. Guru Granth Sahib reflect Vedantic philosophy, the Vedanta of Rishi Vedvyas who wrote the Mahabharat. The Japji Sahib is based on Upanishads.
Summary :
IN 1500 , Guru Nanak Dev Ji ( 1469-1538 ad.), went to bathe in a stream and was missing for three days.His first statement when he came out was “neti, neti ” (neither here, nor there from the Upanishads-Vedas) na koi hindu, na koi turkh, kudrat keh hain sab bandey”.
…three days is a short time if you want to free yourself from acquired physics and start a new religion… the insight with which he came back with after three days retreat, as quoted by Khushwant Singh was entirely within Hindu tradition:
” their is no muslim, no hindu” it does not mean that I Nanak, am neither hindu or muslim, it means that the self ( atma , timeless indweller, the object of this mystical experience) is beyond worldly divisions….
”the self is neither black nor white, neither hindu nor muslim, neither this nor that : neti, neti ,” is the Upanishadic phrase from the Vedas, is as typically Hindu as you can get’’
Guru Nanak Dev Ji, continued the bhakti methods of the saints before him, starting with the oral repetition of the name “Rama Nama’
If Guru Nanak Dev Ji’s discovery ” neither hindu nor muslim” had meant a positive conclusion, wouldn’t he have said: “neither Hindu, nor Muslim , sab Sikh?
It is strange that the statement used by many to say, he founded a new religion does not even mention this new religion?
Ek Om Kar, was already there in the Vedas - Hindu text, it is still there today. Ek = single OM = supreme being KAR= sound. Guru Nanak merely emphasised that particular path. Ek Om Kar is originally a Hindu concept. some Sikh separatists like to say EK ‘ON’KAR! what does ‘on’ mean?
Guru Angad was a devoted worshipper of the Goddess Durga. Every year he used to lead a group of devotees from Khadur Sahib, where he had settled, to the temple of Jwalamukhi in the lower Himalayas. In 1532 ad he met Guru Nanak at Kartarpur (pakistan) on his way to Jwalamukhi and became his disciple. Guru Nanak was most impressed with the devotion and selfless services of Lehna, that he proclaimed him as his successor guru in ad1539. As Nanak had previously embraced him, and because of the touch with his body e.g. “ang”, he changed the name of Lehna to Angad, Guru Angad made Khadur sahib his headquarters. Humayun, the Mughal emperor called on him here and paid him homage.
Sikhs were always known as a sect of Hinduism, which is why they continued celebrating traditional Hindu festivals such as Rakhri, Diwali, Lohri, Vaisakhi, Dusshera and Holi. Unlike the Hindus who became known as muslims and started celebrating muslim festivals. If indeed the Gurus wanted to create a new religion, would they not have created religious festivals to coincide and mark this new religions separate?
The fourth guru, Ram Das (1574-1581a.d ), excavated a tank which subsequently became known as Amritsar (pool of nectar) and gave its name to the city that grew around it. in due course, a splendid edifice, Har-mandir (temple of Hari-Vishnu), rose in the middle of this tank and became the supreme centre of the sikh sect of hinduism.
Hindus and the Hindus who later became known as Sikhs, would worship together at Hari(Vishnu)-mandir Sahib, aptly named by the fourth guru Ram Dass, it housed murtis of Lord Shiva, Lord Vishnu and the 6th Guru Harigobind until 1906 and is today known as the golden temple.
Sumer Singh Chauhan in his essay on the common heritage of the sikhs and hindus - divide & conquer - states:
“many scholars have stated that the granth contains specific references to hindu gods such as Rama and Krishna.
The gurudwaras, or sikh temples, have always been decorated with pictures of Hindu Gods, and both Devtas and Devis.
The first desecration of these pictures and Murtis was in 1906 at Harmandir, and this was the first action taken by separatist sikhs, heavily influences by British administrators such as Max Arthur Macauliffe and Wilheim Leitner (who invented the name Singh Sabha).
Until 1906 there remained life size Murtis of both Lord Hari ( Vishnu) and the 6th Guru Harigovind
Other gurudwaras also had them removed as recently as 1984, this occurred after the attack on the golden temple. this was not an attack on religion but was justified for reasons of national security.
IF THE GURUS DIDNT WANT MURTIS OF HINDU GODS IN THE
HAR(VISHNU) MANDIR, WOULDNT THEY HAVE SAID SO DURING THEIR LIFETIMES INSTEAD OF IT HAPPENING IN 1906 UNDER THE SAY SO OF THE BRITS???
Guru Govind passed on in 1708, over 200 years after his passing the Singh Sabha suddenly decide to remove these murtis??
———
All ten Gurus marriages were conducted by Hindu pandits and they were married within Hindu rituals, as were other Sikhs until the Anand Karaj Act was passed in 1909.
The Laava written by the 4th Guru Ram Dass were about mans spiritual union wiv god, which can never be BROKEN, not about a union between man and woman!
If the Sikh gurus all had Hindu weddings why, 200 years after the passing of the last Sikh Guru, Guru Govind Singh in 1708, was the ANAND KARAJ ACT passed in 1909?
Surely if the Gurus wanted Sikhs to have seperate weddings they would have said so in theri own lifetimes
——
Some closed minded bigots refer to Hindus as Idol worshippers, but Idol worshiping is truly something that we do not do, we worship with great vigor, with heart and soul.
Idol-worshipping is an offensive and derogatory term used by the British during the British Raj through shear ignorance to degrade our ancient religion. We use Murtis to help us worship we do not specifically worship these images, we use these as focal points to help us worship god
July 27th, 2007 at 2:40 pm
Where is that clown Gurjeet, he should enlighten all us “cowardly” Hindus how Sikhs brought us indepedence or maybe that sikh arse licker ravi sharma can do that?
Stop hiding on your forums you wankers and answer our questions, the fact that the coward never replied should tell us that sikhs saving Hindus or bringing us independence is utter nonsense, it’s all an ego trip of these losers, the reality was that they were privileged under British rule, the British patronised Sikh Jatts and NW Muslims, one only has to check their % in Britich Indian army to realise this, now they are out rewriting history to make themselves out as India’s saviors.
If these “veerji’s” can’t even reply on a forum, how could these lot save us?
July 28th, 2007 at 4:35 pm
General Sin
The only point I am trying to make is that a MAJOR political change in the subcontinent happens every 200 years or so and it is bound to happen again in a similar time frame. This change next time MAY have strong economic reasons.
I am not trying to justify Khalistan. However, it is curiously interesting to note that the period of Ranjit Singh Dynasty was just about 200 ago.
It is also interesting to note that the name “India” was coined by the British geographers and has no political base at all in the past history. Similarly the name “India” is associated to about 7 different geographical locations on the globe, obviously courtesy of British geographers.
Respectfully
Hanji
July 29th, 2007 at 7:25 am
Hanji, major political change happens all over the world and isn’t restricted to the sub-continent. Only 20 or so years ago, the Soviet Union broke up. Things happen all the time. Don’t delude yourself with such garbage logic in your desire to split Bharat and produce a Khalistan. India is strong both economically and militarily without much internal disturbance. If anything, we might see a breakup of Pakistan, that will be the only change in the sub-continent.
As for India, it’s only an english word that corresponds to the river Sindhu and its region. There is an official native word for Bharat as well, it’s called Bharata Ganarajya, go look it up.
July 29th, 2007 at 12:40 pm
it is completely wrong to say that at Hindu festivals the crowd is mainly Sikh…the editors need to wake up and stop posting this gibberish.
AUTHOR’S RESPONSE: Any person who has spent a considerable amount of time in Punjab will be able to vouch for the fact which you claim to be gibberish - that at some Hindu festivals many, and in some cases most, of the people gathered are Sikhs.- Paven
July 29th, 2007 at 3:28 pm
Pandyan
I agree as you said, major political changes happen all over the world. They happen rather quickly elsewhere, however, in the subcontinent, I think, the similar changes happen rather slowly. What the future political configuration in the subcontinent is going to be is anybody’s guess.
Numerous countries in the subcontinent have been economically and militarily strong in the past and still could not stop the political change. Asoka surly could not have waged a bloody war on his own people. It was another country he invaded and conquered in the subcontinent. Please look at the list I have provided in the previous post. Also, please note that during those mighty rulers there were anywhere 7 to 500 other independent governments in the subcontinent at any given time.
Respectfully
Hanji
July 29th, 2007 at 6:09 pm
what a load of crap
the land of India was always culturally united
every king in the past tried to politically unite it
just Khalistani daydreaming to justify the formation of a minority theocrcacy fascist state in Punjab
just have a look at the way in which they are attacking people belonging to the Dera Sucha Sauda and the ‘forced conversions’ of predominantly backward caste people to a ‘pure’ form of Sikhi to understand what these people are all about
there is no brotherhood with fascists and we shoudl call it for what it is
Hinduism equals freedom of thought and action
Khalistan means extrermist religious based fascist state where all those not abiding bu pure Sikhi will be dealt with - a supremecist religious state
nothing the hell to do with human rights !!
July 30th, 2007 at 2:57 pm
Read the article and seemed Ok but like MOST of these Articles they fail to pick of up on Majha Jatt Culture which is one of the major reasons behind the Khalistan issue.
Saying that the article to me seemed to be anti-congress and pro-hindutva.
Cheers
July 30th, 2007 at 2:59 pm
All Hindus Are Sikh.
July 30th, 2007 at 6:20 pm
the borders of bharat are definite. todays political climate does not resemble that of 200 years ago, when there was much turmoil and confusion. your theory is just one more string that khalistani hopefuls hold on to for a hope that a khalistan will be formed. in that case, we will just have to duke it out and don’t cry when you lose.
July 30th, 2007 at 7:02 pm
Pindoo
Contrary to what you said, it is universally accepted that the subcontinent is the most culturally diverse region of world.
Every ruler tried to unite the subcontinent politically and failed. Even the British could not do it. As I said before, there were from 7 to 500 countries at any given time period in the subcontinent. They had their own currency, legal system, army etc. I have already given list of the major rulers of the subcontinent history in one of the previous post.
I am in no way trying to justify formation of anything. The only statement I have made is that the changes in the political structure in the subcontinent curiously happen around every 200 years or so and they are bound to happen again. What the future configuration would be is anybody’s guess.
Respectfully
Hanji
July 30th, 2007 at 11:46 pm
“All Hindus Are Sikh.”
yep and nanak was a devout muslim ….
July 31st, 2007 at 5:50 am
Pandyan
All the mighty rulers in the subcontinent like Maurya Dynasty (321-184 B.C.), Kushan Dynasty (48-182 A.D.), Gupta Dynasty (390-550 A.D.), Vardhana Dynasty (560-647 A.D.), etc. thought the borders of their countries were definite.
Unfortunately nothing is definite in this world politically. Soviets found that out not too long ago.
The last big political change in the subcontinent happened in 1947 and not 200 years ago.
Even the British thought that they were in the subcontinent for good and would never leave. Please read Churchil’s statements before WWII. One of the major reasons the British had to quit was their near bankrupsy after WWII expense. Financially as well as militarily they could not hold on to their colonial possessions. The British had to let them go one by one, starting with the subcontinent.
Respectfully
Hanji
July 31st, 2007 at 10:16 am
I personally really couldn’t give a flying fcuk how many Sikhs fought for Indapendance i think the Actual Figure is around 23% out of the Sikh population died fighting for Indapendance not 80%-90% and considering our population i think we punched well above our weight i mean we only make up 1.5% of the entire Indian population.
My Grandfather the late Gurcharan Singh Mahlee, and my Great Grandfather all fought under the Union Jack and if anything its something am PROUD of even look at the Sikh Regiment most highly decorated Regiment in the Indian Forces and also British Forces.
Someone pointed out earlier in their post that Sikh do not consider themselves to be Hindu so let it Be! Thank You! we do not consider ourselves to be Hindu and are happy to keep it that way.
Here’s a TRUE story about “Sikhs Hindus” thing. There were some Southern m**keys ( south indians ) that came to my old University and they were adamant that Sikhs were Hindus…they just would not stop i mean these took the biscuit started coming out with Anand Karaj Act, The Dasam Granth and how Sikhs are white washing their history by taking Murtis out of the Gurdware blah blah blah i was falling asleep i rally honestly couldn’t give a flying fcuk.
So I told them fine………….Sikhs are Hindus. And by the same token All Hindus are Sikhs! Can you imagine……….…Southies da sir kamaaditha. They were like wait a minute. I was exactly – aho aho lunn they buj.
By the way ” nihang ” mentioned Asian evangelical churches in UK are run by ex-Sikhs and even have langar. Check it yourself every Sunday at Hounslow. Am under the impression that you have a dialogue with these ex-Sikhs and since you are advertising the fact that you are a Jat how many of these ex-Sikhs actually come from a Jat Background???
LMFAO…….May the sword of Durga smash Sikh separatism and Glassy Junction with it.
July 31st, 2007 at 3:05 pm
Hanji
What are you trying to say? Yes political change happens all the time and as you admitted yourself, not just in the Indian subcontinent. But change doesn’t come about randomly every 200 years. It arises out of contemporary situtations and prevalent political circumstances. The socio-political situation right now isn’t so that such a Khalistani split or a Tamil split is likely. California is more likely to separate from US than that or even Scotland from UK for that matter.
Trying to account for a Khalistan split or a Tamil split for using statistics is a bit like saying that since Docter Shipman has a 9 out of 10 chance of killing his patient and he’s already kill the first nine, so that means that the next patient is safe.
Statistics is a subject that says if a man has him head in freezer and legs in a oven he’d be at a optimum temperature on average. When one gets bogged down on data analysis and such numerical simplification without understanding the current socio-political scenes, they come out with quotes like simplified/generalised statements like this…
“Political change comes to the subcontinent every about 200 years. Last time this change happened in 1947. The idea of Sikh homeland or Tamil homeland or other homelands in the subcontinent will eventually happen”
July 31st, 2007 at 3:29 pm
you think the brits give a flying fcuk for SIKH?…you think that the Sikh regiment is the most highly decorated in the Indian AND British army?…what a deluded person you are.
…and whats with calling those from south India..monkeys?…youve just demonstrated your (ironic) superiority complex.
…and yes, the OVERWHELMING majority of people that have replied on this thread are saying that Sikhs ARENT Hindus and vice versa…and the ones that DO say this..are being confronted by HINDUS on this thread…so why on earth youre STILL getting Sikhs on this website writing in to REAFFIRM that Sikhs arent Hindus smacks of a seige mentality. I suggest you all grown the fcuk up.
July 31st, 2007 at 3:34 pm
jivanmahlee is a typical khalistani pr*ck. likes to insult south indians, but he’s about as white as a cup of diar**ea.
you want to provide stats for your % claims? especially since your kind is very adept at making up lies. thats why we don’t accept ridiculous garbage like 90% because only people as dumb as your kind would accept it.
no one cares about your family’s history of british a** licking, we all know sikhs did that a lot, like putting down the 1857 revolt for a few rupees and martial race status.
July 31st, 2007 at 3:34 pm
southern monkeys eh?
as i said u cowards don’t say nothing to our faces, yep the same southern monkeys would beat the shit out of khalistani cowards like u in Toronto or London.
hehehehe, we look like monkeys, what do u look like, the goras think u r nothing but turban wearing little taliban although u keep lickin their a**e day in and day out.
sikhs 23% hahahahahaha, more jokes, u guys were busy serving the british that ur degenerate friends have to stick fake beards on Veer’s like Bhagat Singh to make him out to be a sikh, they have degenerated to the level where they can’t even learn to respect the beliefs of great people like him.
where do u think u got ur “martial race” tag from, u got it from all that brit a**e licking u did and who believes in that stupidity except dumbos like u now, the LTTE would kick ur “martial race” asses anytime.
anyway don’t worry, keep w**king over fake beliefs of racial superiority and beauty cuz the day ain’t far when u will be hiding behind ur women’s chunnis when u see a “southern monkey” just like ur fellow believers in racial superiority “the sinhalese” currently do.
July 31st, 2007 at 5:26 pm
“All Hindus Are Sikh.”
This is like saying that you gave birth to your own father! ALL of sikh culture comes from Hinduism. This includes language, names music, politics, enthicity, religion and even all the gurus who were Hindu Scholars - it all comes from Sanatana Dharma!
If you sikhs want to distance yourself from your roots, I suggest you refrain from copying our way of life and get your own language, culture and music and change your names too, since these are all derived from Sanskrit.
Whilst you’re at it, start your own religion by nailing some bearded, turbaned guy to a wooden stake pray to him that he grants you khalistan. (Your sikh sisters have already started this in west London churches)
July 31st, 2007 at 5:42 pm
“Someone pointed out earlier in their post that Sikh do not consider themselves to be Hindu so let it Be!”
Yep most of us Hindus on here have pointed that out and the reason is because most of you lot are not good enough to be Hindus.Let’s be serious.Who in their right frame of mind wants to be associated with a bunch of jokers who live on glories and myths of the past and then try to create a fake religion which tells their followers to tell porkies all the time. The same time all their women are running off with the United Nations .I’ll tell you a true story and anyone can check this whenever these khalistanis fascists are doing some march. Well what happened was that early on I had eaten some tasty samosas and for laugh I thought lets see these losers do their march. As the usual nonsense went on then suddenly I nearly puked out my samosas when I saw all these elderly blue turbaned women with beards.And I thought that says it all.So this is a religion is it ? Thanks god these lot are shouting out they’re not Hindus..
July 31st, 2007 at 8:35 pm
108
I see that you have continuously stressed on the “present” and the “current” situations. And I also notice that you have not disagreed with the eventual change in the subcontinent. I agree that the current and the present conditions are not ripe for the political change. However, what presently is happening in ALL the countries in the subcontinent, does not paint a pretty picture for the future generations.
Respectfully
Hanji
July 31st, 2007 at 10:27 pm
Ok am going to take each of your posts point by point cause it seems that everyone seems to have it in for The Unfriendly Sikh lol.
Anyway lets begin with db8, you my son got bent outta shape i simply called them Southies Monkeys as a Londoner would call someone from up North a Northern ferry. Southern Monkeys - Northern Fairys. Hope you can digest that and not get too over emotional. Superioty complex da ladgha!
Madurai Veeran were you there at the 1857 Revolt when it happend??? so why you throwing a hissy fit….. You didn’t even bother reading what i had written in my post cause if you had you wouldn’t be accusing me of writting and i quote YOU ” thats why we don’t accept ridiculous garbage like 90% because only people as dumb as your kind would accept it. ” i don’t accept Sikhs were 90% of the driving force for Indapendance you said it not me son.
Oh you (edited) Harish, you alright son??? lol hey if you honestly really that frustrated and really want a Straightner with these Khalistani Sikhs by all means go to The Red Fort in Smethwick or 7 Kings Gurdwara in London and give it LARGE. It seems to me you seriously have issues were you bullied as a kid????
Sonya Sonya Sonya you named after that bollywood actress whats her name…………………..Sonya Jehan??? Anyway regarding your post you seem to have taken the same Reaction as them Southies at my old University did i.e So I told them fine………….Sikhs are Hindus. And by the same token All Hindus are Sikhs! Can you imagine……….…Southies da sir kamaaditha. They were like wait a minute. I was exactly – aho aho lunn they buj. Hope you see the revelance of teh story that i was telling….???
Punjabi you seem to think that your lot are so far better than our lot sorry to burst your bubble son but they are not. I mean what kind of reaction were you expecting from me by saying and i quote ” The same time all their women are running off with the United Nations ” LOL thats right i forgot all Hindu woman are Virgins till they get Married. YAWN.
Secondly you wrote and i quote you ” As the usual nonsense went on then suddenly I nearly puked out my samosas when I saw all these elderly blue turbaned women with beards.And I thought that says it all.So this a religion is it ? Thanks god these lot are shouting out they’re not Hindus.. ” Oh no you saw a bunch of woman with Facial Hair and almost puked out your Paneer Tikka Samosa.
Hey there is plenty of rituals thats Hindus do that the Civilised world would think is Barbaric but am not here to throw cheap shots.
July 31st, 2007 at 10:30 pm
72 Battle Honours, 15 Theatre Honours and 5 COAS Unit Citations besides 2 Param Vir Chakras, 14 Maha Vir Chakras, 5 Kirti Chakras, 67 Vir Chakras and 1596 other gallantry awards.
This is what the Sikh Regiment has Achieved and the source it came from is bharat-rakshak which by the way guys is not a Khalistani website before you start throwing a hissy fit like last……
August 1st, 2007 at 12:14 am
I stress present and current situations because that’s where future situations arise out of. In any case, change and evolution happens all the time not just in the socio-political level and also not just in the subcontinent. Saying that just because change happens India is going to split is like saying that just because evolution happens dogs are going to start flying. Both these situations are are just as random, far-fetched and as likely or unlikely as the other.
For starters, the “subcontinent” is not one entity at the present. The situation in pakistan is separate to that in nepal which is different to that in sri lanka or bangladesh or India, which is in fact more stable at than any of its neighbours. It is more likely that civil wars would start in those neighbouring countries than the concept of khalistan ever taking fruit.
In any case just because change happens, it doesn’t have to be so that the india would split. It could just as well be that the concept of khalistan dies out completely. But again these are just random predictions and have no substance as the statement
“Political change comes to the subcontinent every about 200 years. Last time this change happened in 1947. The idea of Sikh homeland or Tamil homeland or other homelands in the subcontinent will eventually happen”
August 1st, 2007 at 12:46 pm
“Oh you (edited) Harish, you alright son??? lol hey if you honestly really that frustrated and really want a Straightner with these Khalistani Sikhs by all means go to The Red Fort in Smethwick or 7 Kings Gurdwara in London and give it LARGE. It seems to me you seriously have issues were you bullied as a kid????”
hehehehe i think u r the one wid some problems, although ur community is thought of as nothing but turban wearing taliban by goras u think we look like monkeys, i think som madrasi prob did the (edited) on ur sis and ran away, so u hide behind ur PC chattin (edited).
i really don’t wanna go places infested by female child killing (edited) pirates, anyway i am in toronto, i don’t even suggest you come to a temple, just go to a bunch of tamils and say the exact same (edited) u said and see how it turns out ….
all this talk is bs, we all can see where LTTE is and where Khalistanis are, that should tell us all about how brave this “tall, hairy, beautiful, fair” “martial race” is, it’s only real achievement for the last decade is cyber (edited).
you claimed sikhs were 23%, show us the evidence you (edited).
August 1st, 2007 at 4:50 pm
Will Hindus wake up and let Sikhs go wherever they want to go? Hinduism is far too great and does not need their acknowledgement.
We should be proud of our great Hindu heritage, culture, science, and language and best philosophy of life. We should remember that once we were most sought after country (when we were just Hindus), we were brave and great warriors. We only lost our glory under the influence of Buddhism, Islam, British rule and to some extent, advent of Sikhism. We don’t need any of them.
Our Sanatan dharma, the Vedic Hinduism is the greatest and that’s all we need. We should concentrate on bridging the north south divide, eradicate caste system and unite as Hindus.
Once we are united and stand tall and proud of ourselves, we the one billion Hindus on this planet will not need anyone else to call Hindus. These Sikhs will run to us saying we are Hindus, we are Hindus and then we will say -no thanks.
Why don’t we Hindus concentrate on our own unity, raising our voices on anything anti Hindu, championing Hindu cause wherever we can, rather than trying to prove others as Hindus? If they don’t want to be, let them go, we don’t need them.
August 1st, 2007 at 4:59 pm
“Punjabi you seem to think that your lot are so far better than our lot sorry to burst your bubble son but they are not.”
I dont think I know but you’re allowed to dream son as it must be hard to feel inferior.
“I mean what kind of reaction were you expecting from me by saying and i quote ” The same time all their women are running off with the United Nations ” LOL thats right i forgot all Hindu woman are Virgins till they get Married. YAWN.”"
I rather marry Hindu woman who isn’t a virgin than a khalistani woman with a beard and who has had more d**ks up her then the amount of cars go through the euro tunnel every year…
August 1st, 2007 at 5:55 pm
“Hey there is plenty of rituals thats Hindus do that the Civilised world would think is Barbaric but am not here to throw cheap shots. ”
Yes sure and thats why so many of the “Civilised world” world are taking up Hinduism but I dont see any women of the “Civilised world” growing beards.
August 1st, 2007 at 6:10 pm
“Madurai Veeran were you there at the 1857 Revolt when it happend???”
no you thick skulled git, but i can comprehend the things i read out of a history book.
lets see some evidence for the 23%. do you lot just throw around numbers and hope ppl accept it?
August 1st, 2007 at 6:16 pm
“Sonya Sonya Sonya you named after that bollywood actress whats her name…………………..Sonya Jehan??”
Is this your pathetic method of waffling your way around the argument at hand? Can’t you do better than that?
I didn’t exptect a counter argument when I said that everything sikh is derived from Hinduism. It seems you khalistanis can’t deny this and have yet to engineer a counter argument in order to live in denial. The pakistani and bangladeshi muslims have tried to engineer an argument against this too and are still living in denial!
“Anyway regarding your post you seem to have taken the same Reaction as them Southies at my old University did i.e So I told them fine………….Sikhs are Hindus. And by the same token All Hindus are Sikhs!”
Sikhs are not Hindus! They have a long way to go before they can be accepted back into the Hindu fold. To start with they have to bring their women in control who seem to be ever ready to date white and black guys, and detest men with turbans and beards.
“I was exactly – aho aho lunn they buj. Hope you see the revelance of teh story that i was telling….???”
I don’t see the relevance at all! All I can see is that you are using punjabi words - a language which was derived from Sanskrit! Please refrain from using a Hindu derived language and stop calling yourself Jivan as this is a Hindu name and has significant meaning in our Dharma.
I say this again:
Unless you khalistanis can create your own culture language and political system, as well as your own religion, I suggest that you thank your Hindu forefathers who’s Sanskrit way of life you have been living!
Don’t spit in the same plate you eat off!
August 1st, 2007 at 7:18 pm
You know why Sikhs don’t want to accept that until 1909 they worshipped Lord Vishnu in Golden Temple (still a temple!)?
1. Because Hindus grovel to them.
2. Common misconception which Hindus themselves and Sikhs spread–
Sikhs were created to ‘Protect’ Hindus from atrocities of Muslim rulers, so they are braver etc etc. The fact is Sikhs DID NOT EXIST (They were Hindus) as late as their last guru called them Sikhs–
And they WERE created by last guru IN THE NAME OF PROTECTING HINDUS, BUT NOT TO PROTECT HINDUS. The distinction must be understood.
Of course all Hindu families In and around Punjab sent their eldest son to fight Mughal rulers, to save themselves along with guru’s disciples, but who then very convientntly converted them into Sikhs.
3. Now if these Sikhs donot want to aknowldge it, let them go.
4. We Hindus are the most brainy, have most advanced thiniking capabilities, we have words most beautiful arts and dance heritage, the most advanced language, we have the greatest religion which gives us the most beautiful gift–freedom of thought outside the box, we are one billion in number, we just need to unite, build our strengths, stand up as a Hindu nation, help each other, eradicate caste sytem, eradicate silly north south divide, and then world will be at our feet , who are these 20 million sikhs? Who needs them ? Let them go !
August 1st, 2007 at 8:29 pm
im from Gujarat jeevan…so in relation, punjab is north…so ill call you a northern dungbeetle. Not nice hey?…so try and refrain from calling those from south India southern monkeys.
August 2nd, 2007 at 1:42 pm
People say the gurus abolished caste discrimination????????????
1, If the Gurus abolished the caste system why did then they themseLves marry WITHIN their OWN Khatri caste?
2, Why did all the gurus apart from Guru har Rai who had 8 wives, one of which was a handmaid and the mother of Ram Rai )marry within theri OWN caste.
3, why did the Gurgaddi become a family monopoly, limted to the SODHI family of Khatri caste after the the 3rd Guru Amardass decided it would remain in the Sodhi family?
THIS WAS IN CONTRAST TO WHAT GURU NANAK HAD ORDERED
4, Why did the gurugaddi become a BIRTH right rather than it going to the best person for the job??
5, Why didnt the gurus lead by example the way the ARYA SAMAJIS did by marrying their children to people of lower castes ie tharkans , Jatts and chammars?
6, If guru govind singh ji and guru Harigovind Ji had three wives shouldnt one fo them at least have been from a lower caste??
August 4th, 2007 at 4:58 am
108
I draw you attention to Khushwant Singh’s latest book “The End of India”, published by Penguin Books. Khushwant Singh is a former Indian diplomat as well as has a long career in journalism. The back-cover reads:
“Analysing the communal violence in Gujarat in 2002, the burning of Graham Staines and his children, the anti-Sikh riots of 1984, and targeted killing by terrorists in different parts of the country, Khushwant Singh forces us to confront the extreme corruption of religion that has made us among the most brutal prople on earth. We have always been too easily tolerant of extremist ideologies, but the rise of religious fundamentalism among the Hindus threatens our democracy and everything else that we take of granted. With sections of the ruling coalition openly supporting the divisive and retrograde agenda of the fundamentalists, it is the very idea of India that is at stake. Unless a miracle saves us, Khushwant Singh writes, the country will break up. It will not be Pakistan or any other foreign power that will destroy us, we will commit hara-kiri.”
I HOPE AND PRAY that what he is forecasting does not happen.
Respectfully
Hanji
August 4th, 2007 at 1:04 pm
I take it you believe kushwant singhs words and opinions are gospel?
In a third world country of a Billion of which around 80% are Hindus, why is the murder of Graham Staines and his sons held up as indicative of Indias cruelty?….had Graham Staines been Hindu im sure the media both western and indigeous to India would not have spent even an iota of time and effort in making the news publicly known.
Its funny how the atrocities against Hindus in places like Kashmir and Bangladesh are conveniently ignored by ALL sections of media and ironically and most annoyingly by Indian media.
August 4th, 2007 at 4:15 pm
Khushwant singh is the fascist that supported the ban on Salman Rushdie’s “Satanic Verses” giving nonsensical justifications, so I don’t take him as the best candidate to comment on religious extremism because he himself backed it quite a lot when it came from non Hindus.
“In his History of the Sikhs (1963), he has argued for a Sikh state within India, in which the use of Gurumukhi and the learning of the Sikh Scriptures would be obligatory in the schools, and in which the state would actively protect and promote Sikh culture. If that is secularism, let him explain what communalism is. He rejected the concept of a Panjabi Suba as a dishonest cover for what was really intended as a Sikh Suba. Later he opposed the separatist militants, but has defended his Sikh Suba as protector of Sikh identity in some more articles.
http://voiceofdharma.com/books/ayodhya/notes.htm ”
It’s funny how they keep mentioning Gujarat but no one mentions what happened to Kashmiri Pandits in 1989, 3 years before Babri demolition and nearly 13 years before Gujarat, they are still in refugee camps.
August 4th, 2007 at 4:33 pm
Khuswant Singh is the same pseudosecularist who has written articles mocking Hindu social practices, which have become chapters of school textbooks (thanks to our secular! govt). He conveniently forgots ills and stupidities of his own religion, while he mocks at tilak in that chapter. He forgets laughable reasoning of religious symbols of his own religion e.g. Kacha (underwear). However, the real enemies of Hindus are Hindus themselves who let pseudo intellectuals like Khushwant singh propagate his anti Hindu agenda in the name of secularism.
August 4th, 2007 at 8:11 pm
“3. The “beard” who was responsible for getting ‘Satanic Verses’ banned in India was a Sikh, Khushwant Singh. He thought there would be riots. Muslims usually do what is expected of them…so since they are expected to do things like fly planes into buildings, strap themselves with bombs, acquire a bump on their forehead and aspire for heaven, they get out of their madrassas and learn engineering only so that their deaths can be celebrated in the madrassas. Lesson to be learned from Rushdie. Go to Manhattan and live in hiding.
http://farzana-versey.blogspot.com/2007/06/salman-rushdie-and-ground-beneath-his.html ”
What right does this fascist have to talk about “religious extremism” when he himself backed Muslims who wanted to ban the book.
August 5th, 2007 at 7:41 am
4. Khuswant Singh also firmly believes in the bullsht Aryan Invasion Theory of India and discusses it in his book History of Sikhs Vol 1.
What kind of pedigree does he have? U joker !
As for Penguin, supporting a mischieviously titled book “End of India”, no surprise there, after all the UK has given sanctuary to Jihadi and Khalistanio leadership in the past - forces workig for the balkanisation of India, even tho the former has bit the hand that fed em
you balkanise = you weaken = easier to control and manipulate from outside
Needless to say USA, UK, China know a united India would be very powerful. Their foreign policies take stock of this.
August 5th, 2007 at 2:43 pm
Regardless of what is being said by the respected posters here, religious extremism exists in ALL quarters and all the religions in India. This does not paint a pretty picture and does not provide for future unity of the country. This exactly was the reason the subcontinent ended up dividing so many times in the past many thousands of years. A small list of the mighty regimes have already been given. If we are not careful, the history shall repeat itself again and again.
What we should be discussing here is, what can we learn from history, if at all, so that history may not be able to repeat itself.
Respectfully
Hanji
August 5th, 2007 at 7:12 pm
Hanji,
U said above “What we should be discussing here is, what can we learn from history…”
we have been discussing exactly that ….
BUT there are no takers for your 200yr cycle theory, your put your references (Khuswant Singh) forward and we discussed that too…
RESULT not many people agree with you…..instead of changing the subject why dont YOU REPLY to the posts above and debate the worthiness of your original theory and reference source, so that iif they are valid points you’ll enlighten us all and then this discussion will be beneficial to all
August 5th, 2007 at 9:18 pm
Sorry Hanji but you keep on repeating the same nonsense without any facts.You seem to just be obsessed with India breaking up but with all the progress going on which presently is being covered in many magazines from the Time to the New Stateman as India’s Indpendence day comes up have all commented that the whole issue of India breaking up is something of the past as the country now becomes one of the most fastest and progressive countries in world.So I dont know what break up you’re talking about maybe you’re really talking about Pakistan which is about to break up and vanish into history…
August 6th, 2007 at 10:04 am
first of all why couldn’t sikhs get to new delhi and free it, its because sikhs were only in the thousands in population while marathas were in the millions and rest of hindu population was in the millions lol, in 1700’s the sikh population was in the thousands and the sikhs were busy fighting afghans and mughals who’s army’s were much larger then the total population of the sikhs for example 1762 an army of 200 000 afghans were sent into punjab to finish off the entire population of the sikhs which was 60 000 sikhs thats right their were only 60 000 sikhs and what happened oh yes sikhs not only survived but kicked the afghans asses and later on became the first ppl in the history of india to invade and take land from another country, sikhs invaded and took peshware from afganistan, oh yes all of present day pakistan and punjab haryana himichal pradesh and indian kashmire was ruled by sikhs yet sikhs at the time made up less then 1% of the population of south asia yet they almost controlled half of south asia, lol sikhs brought hindus who outnumbered the sikhs and muslims who outnumbered the sikhs under sikh rule, lol just wanted to point that out. But why did it take hindus hundreds of years to free themselves from muslims and fight off the muslims, i mean sikhs had to fight muslim invaders who’s army’s were much larger then their total population but within 100 years after the khalsa was born sikhs fought and earned their land and created their own empire in 1799 the sikhs had kicked out the afghans and tooken power of the punjab and this time held on even though they were so badly out numbered, while the hindu population was much much much larger then the muslim army’s i mean hindus could if they wanted to put army’s together that were 10 times the size of the muslim army’s that invaded india. I mean with all of new delhi being full of hindus why couldn’t the hindus free themselves and expect sikhs who were battling army’s much much larger then theirs to come and save them lol. But sikhs did a pretty damn good job to finally even though against all odds create their own empire that ruled far beyond their numbers.
secondly jason lol hahahaha buddy sikhs are not insecure and start anti conversion laws against christianity, if sikhs convert to christianity its the sikh leaders fault for not educating sikh ppl on sikhism and if they are educated on sikhism were not so insecure were going to stop them from converting, as for sikh girls converting to islam those numbers have declined big time lol hahaah, and on top of that hindu girls are converting to islam as well the difference is the sikhs fought back against the muslims yet hindus never i wonder why, i mean sikhs had an organisation called shere punjab that fought against muslims who tried attacking sikhs yet hindus never did hindus never defended themselves or their women from muslims in and around the uk, oh as well itleast in india we dont’ have sikh women running off with muslims but for some reasion in rest of india you have hindu women running off with muslims, one reasion sikhs don’t have to worry about this is in 1947 sikhs had alot of success in kicking out muslims from their side of the punjab and returned the favour to the muslims for kicking sikhs out of their side of the punjab, but yet hindus never had as much success in 47 considering in rest of india their are more muslims in india then their our in pakistan.
Harish Duggirala
Could anyone give me proof that the mughals gave guru gobind singh ji became friends with the mughals to get land lol oh man what BS,
db8 could you give me real evidence that Guru Gobind Singh told aurangzeb that he’s an idle smasher like him, do you guys feel so insecure you guys have to post garbage like this.
Especially Harish Duggirala in that other post were we discussed converstion of girls lol hahaha but i want him to explain why sikhs fought back against muslims and smashed them good when defending themselves yet hindus didn’t, i mean sikhs fought back and smashed muslims for going after sikh and hindu girls while hindus didn’t do anything. Shere punjab props to them for all the seva they did for our community.
moderator after the cheap shots taken at sikhs once again delete my posts ill let ppl know what type of website this is were hindus take cheap shots at sikhs yet anyone try defending sikhs their comments are deleted.
Dev i think singh explained why hinduism and sikhism are two different religions he explained it well enough even a 5 year old would relize were two different religions, but here since you lack intelligence ill make it easier for you, guru nanak said it himself he is not a sikh or a muslim, guru nanak didn’t follow hinduism he left hinduism and followed the pathway god had shown him which we call sikhism, just like if a jain was born into a jain family but converted to christianity he no longer is a jain because he believes in a different god and a different religion, or if a jew converts to islam he is no longer a jew he is a muslim since he follows islam, and christians arn’t jews ill explain why, christians believe jesus to be their saviour and an incarnation of god but jews believe he’s a prophet thats why their two different religions and christianity and juddism both believe in the old testement but jews reject jesus as god while christians accept him as god. Now if you don’t get this then you have to be dumber then those ppl who come up with those anti conversion laws in india which i don’t get i mean now you have enlish ppl laughing at hindus and talking about how insecure they are and how dumb the laws are, one chineese buddy of miine put it best these ppl have to be completely brain dead and insecure about their own religion if someone believes in christianity and jesus as a way to god and if they believe in jesus as a way to god that means they reject hinduism since christianity conterdicts hinduism and are no longer hindus but christians even though they can’t say their christians because some dumb law prevents them to their still christians.
But im glad that im smart enough and glad with sikhism i can have a debate with a christian regarding our religion rather then going low as setting up an anti conversion law. Those anti conversion laws show how insecure hindus are about their religion lol.
End of the day im against khalistan and killing of any inocent hindus in the punjab and their lack of leadership in taking the sikh community forward but i do believe in justice for inocent sikhs killed in the 80’s and 90’s.
I wonder were india would be with out sikhs lol, i wonder what pakistan would of done to india in the 47 war or 65 war or 71 war if it wasn’t for sikhs, and i wonder what would of happened to india in 99 in kargil if it wasn’t for sikhs, and i wonder why a former cheif of the pakistani army wrote a book which gives sikhs more credit then anyone else for india’s success against pakistan military wise.
August 6th, 2007 at 10:05 am
Harish Duggirala
hehehehe u guys stuck up, maybe thats why gobind singh was kissing upto mughals and got land in nanded while marathas were kicking mughal ass Could you give me a reference to this
jason could you explain how on earth hindus got conquered by muslims when their’s more hindus in india then their are muslims in afghanistan iran iraq turkey pakistan and bangledesh lol hahaha, when sikhism was born in india while under muslim rule sikhs broke the chains and don’t forget their were alot more muslims then sikhs lol hahaah sikhs did it fighting army’s much bigger then them.
jason could you give me a reference to this a real reference
“why Aurangzeb sent only a local governor Wazir Khan to put down the rebellion of Guru Gobind Singh while he himself took the whole might of the Mughal army which was the most powerful army in Asia at the time down south to fight the Hindu Maharatas who finally destroyed him and the Mughals later on.”
Once again explain how hindus got taken over by muslims in the first place when hindus should of produced army’s ten times the size of muslim army’s
Oh and read the book “crisis of leadership” written by Maj General M Khan and how he believes if it wasn’t for the sikhs pakistan would of destroyed india. seriously 2% of the population actually less more like 1.8% of the population yet 10-15% of the indian army is sikh, showing that sikhs are a minimum 5 times more likely then hindus to join the army and go fight in a war, so when you compare the average hindu to the average sikh i wonder who comes out looking braver
Honestly sikhs only 20 million of the population lets say you took all the sikhs and they left to england in 1947 compared to taking 20 million random hindus and sending them to england what would of india bin like today, in my opinion india would of belonged to pakistan. Im pretty sure most hindus have to agree looking at the numbers if all sikhs left india in 1947 pakistan would of owned india, but you take 20 million random hindus out of india, lol india would of survived. Also 40 times as many hindus then sikhs yet sikhs some of the most richest ppl in india, with punjab being the second richest state, named the golden state as the best state to live in and sikhs making more money per capita then anyone else i wonder why everyone so jealous of sikhs.
Harish Duggirala by your anger at sikhs i can tell you got your ass slapped around couple of times by sikhs lol, but also to let you know lol don’t try comparing or downgrading sikhs, by your comments i can tell you feel insecure by sikhs but hey no problem. But straight out i came to this site to talk normal stuff and have real discussions rather then debate against ppl and see ppl insulting sikhs, damn you hindus complain about khalistani’s always pissing you off and mouthing off about hinduism and hindus, yet never does anyone hear hindus mouthing off sikhs accept on the internet. LOL.
And khalistan do you really think khalistan would survive economically. Plus you really think khalistan would happen get your head out of the gutter and start focusing on moving the community forward rather then living in the past.
But then again numbers dont’ matter against sikhs because against all odds sikhs always come through to the top. Less then 1% of the population of south asia and the sikhs controlled everthing from haryana to afghanistan. LOL yet how much of the populations did marathas make and how much land they control back in the 1700’s. LOL.
August 6th, 2007 at 10:05 am
Jat Nihang Mahadev
and lol hahahaah dude what about hindu girls who have muslim boyfriends hahahaha what about the hindu boys who hide from muslims hoping the shere punjab(sikh organisation) will protect their women lol hahahahaha, what about india were you have hindu women marrying muslims something sikhs don’t have to worry about, ive bin to city’s like new delhi and mumbai have cousins who go to the colleges their lol hahahaha buddy their complete sluts especially the hindu girls that come from middle and upper class family’s and the funny thing is the hindus from middle and upperclass family’s try acting westernised and white trying to speak english and think by acting white their modern this is happining in india, lol go to mumbai and goa you’ll see hindu college girls from middle and upper class family’s jumping on western tourists and thinking if they sleep with a guy from europe or north america that it will bring their social statues up, oh and dawood and how many hindu girls who want to go to bollywood and become models are sleepign with muslim gangsters and prostituting themselves for them and going to dubai and workign as prostitutes. Oh yes now drug addictions are going up high thanks to guys like dawood and other muslim gangsters and even hindu gangsters drug addictions among middle and upperclass hindus are going through the roof all around india now why is that.
For sikhs the reasion sikhs are turnign to achole and other’s is because they are moving further away from god, and jason and anyone else NO SIKHISM DOESN’T COME FROM HINDUISM IT COMES FROM GOD, THROUGH ARE GURUS GOD TOUGHT US A PATHWAY TOWARDS HIM WHICH WE CALL SIKHISM THATS WHY ITS IMPOSIBLE FOR A SIKH TO BE A HINDU ITS NOT THAT WE CHOOSE NOT TO BE HINDUS ITS BECAUSE WERE NOT. oh Harish Duggirala THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU FOR POINTING IT OUT TO THE HINDUS ON THIS FORUM THAT SIKHS ARE NOT HINDUS.
Now 1857 reasion sikhs weren’t involved in the independence war was for two reasions, first was the reasion muslims and hindu soilders from the british army revolted was because they thought cow and pig greece was being used for their guns which is a total insult to their belief’s and that it was a first step for the british to convert them to christanity, second reasion you hindus fought to bring back the mughals to make a muslim a ruler of india hhahahaha thats why sikhs loyal to british in the army because they were the men of their word back then, they didn’t make promises then stab ppl in the back.
Indian national army during world war 2 does anyone mind telling me how many sikhs were in their lol hahahaha bose started the INA props to him but harish duggirala how many sikhs joined the INDIAN NATIONAL ARMY. Yet making up less then 1% of indias population at the time, i don’t know much about india’s freedom movement but i know one thing i know sikhs contributed far beyond their numbers to the freedom movement, sikhs always being a small minority acheive far beyond their numbers. Bhagat singh could i get a reference which shows he wasn’t a sikh, and even if he was an athiest still take pride in him considering he was born from a sikh mother into a sikh family.
For the person who said we should start going after sikh girls and converting them to hinduism, lol hahahahahahahahahaa i would like to see the day hindus can do that, dude you guys couldn’t protect your women from muslims in the uk you guys would hide behind the shere punjab, heck dude i hear about hindus brag about the shere punjab to muslims even though the shere punjab is all sikh, some hindu on this site tried saying shere punjab was hindu and sikhs which is impossible considering the guys who ran the shere punjab were khalistan supporters themselves, sad the sikhs could protect their women from muslims but the hindus couldn’t instead hindus did do a good job of hiding around england from muslims while sikhs came out fighting. In london i read this article about how muslims want to take revenge on the sikhs 8 years after the sikhs messed them up. But nothing about hindus doing anything.
About the christian conversions lol hahahaha could someone tell me how many hindus around england and in india have converted to christianity, but thing is sikhs don’t feel insecure thing is if sikhs are converting to christianity its because they have no knowledge of sikhism and if they do have knowledge of sikhism and they still choose to convert so be it its their decision their life i ain’t going to go against them, but hindus on the other hand feel so insecure and start feeling inferior when they hear about hindus converting to christanity they feel so inferior they put up anti conversion laws, lol hahahahahaaha. Wonder why hindus havn’t made a law in kashmire for anti conversion.
August 6th, 2007 at 10:06 am
Tamils against Sikhs seen it in London and its usually Sikhs smashing down on tamils, but Sikhs in Canada especially in Vancouver oh buddy try getting a group of tamils to say something to a group of sikhs from vancouver and guranteed those group of tamils won’t be able to walk afterwards but ask sri lankan tamils what they think of Indian hindus. But yea why you pump up tamils so much they don’t run anything in Toronto lol hahaha all the do is kill each other and the two major gangs that use to exsist are dead or gone. My buddy sri lankan tamil he makes fun of the so called tamil gangsters in Canada saying their nothing any more but small little crews harassing other tamils.
Hey For all the hindus especially from England you guys shouldn’t try insulting Sikhs considering, hindus in england needed the sikhs to fight muslims when hindu girls were being converted muslims by muslim men, why cant the hindu men fight the muslims when muslims are converting hindu girls why is it only the Sikhs that fight the muslims, why do hindus not do anything against the muslims when hindu girls are being converted by muslims. It feels like hindus are scared of muslims in england Their more hindus then Sikhs in England yet Sikhs are the only once who have stood up against the muslims. You know whats the saddest part hindu men can’t protect their women from muslims and the Sikhs have had to protect hindu women yet here their hindus on this site trying to insult Sikhs. WHY DID THE SIKHS STEP UP AND FIGHT THE MUSLIMS IN ENGLAND TO STOP MUSLIMS FROM GOING AFTER SIKH AND HINDU GIRLS YET HINDUS DID NOTHING, ARE THE HINDUS SCARED OF THE MUSLIMS IS THAT WHY THEY DID NOTHING.
Im pretty sure their our just as many hindus or even more hindus that have converted to christainity then Sikhs. Sikhs aren’t so insecure to put up anti conversion laws either lol, if Sikhs are converting to christanity its either our fault for not educating them on Sikhism enough or if they are educated on Sikhism and still choose to convert im all good with it its their choice and I respect it, but for hindus for some reason they get all insecure probably explaining the insults thrown at Sikhs on this website.
Why are so many of you insulting sikh girls, ill admit a lot of sikh girls are out of control but have you seen hindu girls their just as bad as the sikh girls and some of them a lot worste then sikh girls, have you seen how hindu girls behave in America, or in India were they try acting white and think sleeping around is a good way to make themselves more popular and bring their social status up because sleeping around is seen as the new cool thing in India lol hahaha. For ppl Insulting Sikhism man what if I started insulting Hinduism but I wouldn’t ever go down that low because I got respect for other religions that’s what Sikhism teaches Sikhs to do.
August 6th, 2007 at 10:07 am
i have respect for hindus and am against khalistan but for hindus who hate sikhs sad thing is you guys are only good to say stuff about sikhs on the internet and never in real life. For anyone who thinks sikhs choose not to be hindus its not a choice sikhism is a different religion from hinduism and its not because sikhs say it is.
August 6th, 2007 at 10:26 am
So Sikh finally comes back.Wasn’t this the same Skih who claimed no Sikh girls are converting to Islam.Well what about that Amritdhari Sikh girl who converted to Islam right in Sikhs hometown of Birmingham ? Sikh wake up instead of doing to many LOLs or hahahahahahahas unless you’re laughing at yourself for talking nonense then its understandable but then you could be also looking in the mirror which is even more understandable..hahahahaha
August 6th, 2007 at 11:26 am
dev when did i say sikh girls didn’t convert to islam could you point that out, i said most the problem went away but the girl came back after the muslim family was attacked, what have hindus done to save their women when forced to convert. But this girl seems to bin forced to convert but most sikh girls are educated on why not to date muslims because when this was a huge issue in the 80’s and 90’s girls chose to convert because they were in love with their boyfrieds or just got used like whores becuase muslims refuse to treat muslim girls in that way. For all the hindu girls that were educated on muslims and what they were up to usually those hindu girls were educated by sikhs since it was the sikhs speaking out about what they were doing and didn’t take 10 years to do so.
But dev everyone including you throwing cheap sshots at sikhs could you tell me why the sikhs had to protect hindu girls why hindus coudln’t do it themselves in the 90’s why was it the shere punjab which has many khalistanis in it had to do that job.
Plus on that other site dev you never proved to me that incident you claimed happened lol, feel so low you had to come up with bs like that, tell me why wasn’t this stuff on the news about random muslims attacking random sikh women and elders and children why wouldn’t it be on the news i mean why only one one website would that stuff show but no one else in the world ever talked about it.
and dev remember 97 when the sikhs messed up the muslims so badly it took them almost ten years to start wanting revenge on sikhs i know that stuff, but why didn’t hindus say anything to the muslims or give them a huge bashing after all they were going after hindu women and converting them and attacking hindus yet sikhs made a group called shere punjab to teach muslims a lesson why didn’t hindus do anything and why did hindus need shere punjab to protect them as well.
http://www.easterneyeonline.co.uk/iframe_story.asp?NID=2505
August 6th, 2007 at 11:29 am
read the article the intentions of the article are extremely good but it should of bin much better researched because it still is missing some huge points like human rights violations towards sikhs under hands of guys like kps gill who’s living like a king thanks to the indian government.
Thought it would of bin neat to talk about this stuff when i saw the article on the site but damn saw all these attacks being thrown at sikhs by guys who were bullied by khalistanis.
August 6th, 2007 at 3:09 pm
“Thought it would of bin neat to talk about this stuff when i saw the article on the site but damn saw all these attacks being thrown at sikhs by guys who were bullied by khalistanis. ”
Yeh right in your dreams.You or can any khalistani can meet me if you want to see if I’m the type to be bullied..You problem is you live in some past glory which you personally had know part in playing.Its no wonder Sikhi is falling apart.
August 6th, 2007 at 3:10 pm
“It feels like hindus are scared of muslims in england Their more hindus then Sikhs in England yet Sikhs are the only once who have stood up against the muslims. ”
Wheres the proof ? The truth is you haven’t lived but only live on false myths.
August 6th, 2007 at 5:29 pm
“human rights violations towards sikhs under hands of guys like kps gill”
Well maybe all the Sikh sites should also highlight the human rights abuses of Hindus in Punjab well before 84.I haven’t seen any so far.
August 6th, 2007 at 5:43 pm
“Plus on that other site dev you never proved to me that incident you claimed happened lol,”
Actaully mate we did and since then you vanished very convientley.The truth is all your facts are home made myths.
“But why did it take hindus hundreds of years to free themselves from muslims and fight off the muslims, ”
Oh right so Hindus were just sitting around doing nothing for 800 years ? Go and check the history of others to see how other nations were all converted within a hundred years.Next door Iran is a good example.Your problem is you think that Sikhs saved everyone but the truth is they cant even save themselves apart from living on homemade myths like you do.I’ve seen plenty of sikhs get beaten up by muslims and others and their women going off with all types.So face reality mate before you get converted.
August 6th, 2007 at 7:04 pm
“NO SIKHISM DOESN’T COME FROM HINDUISM IT COMES FROM GOD, THROUGH ARE GURUS GOD TOUGHT US A PATHWAY TOWARDS HIM WHICH WE CALL SIKHISM THATS WHY ITS IMPOSIBLE FOR A SIKH TO BE A HINDU ITS NOT THAT WE CHOOSE NOT TO BE HINDUS ITS BECAUSE WERE NOT. ”
So where does Hinduism come from as you’re such an expert.The truth is we know where your khalistani fascism really comes from and its definitely not from the Gurus thats for sure.Now you will say you dont believe in Khalistan to prove you’re not a Khalistani but thats the latest trick being played because you like some other khalistanis know very well its impossible for a khalistan to happen.So instead you try to spread your khalistanism as real Sikhism.Not everyone is being fooled mate.The truth will always prevail remember..
August 6th, 2007 at 7:13 pm
http://forum.afghansite.com/index.php?s=db10f5d06e8793e9f4b3b38bbd6055a7&showtopic=13743
that is pretty funny.
neway, this “sikh” is pretty much a liar and a myth maker like the rest of his kind. you guys are really good at making up stories. like the battle saragarhi being classified by UNESCO as an example of courage. i tried to find the source, but there seems to be nothing like that from UNESCO, yet another myth from the sikh myth making machine.
as for sikhs in the INA, the INA was 70% tamil u loser. it was made up of tamil migrant workers in burma and north east india. (this was confirmed by anita blose plaff, daughter of netaji)
blah blah blah we saved hindus, blah blah. you i***ts could barely save yourselves in 84 from congress henchmen, yet you make up fantastical tales of 2 or 3 sikhs fighting entire divisions and headless dudes fighting people..real funny.
“sikhs in Canada especially in Vancouver oh buddy try getting a group of tamils to say something to a group of sikhs”
hhahahhahaahahhahaaha, yea ok buddy.
http://www.thestar.com/News/article/214008
u guys r nuthin but khanda tattoo wearing losers. you keep dal f**ting about saving hidus and this and that.
“Now 1857 reasion sikhs weren’t involved in the independence war was for two reasions”
yea great excuses, now do you care to tell us why sikhs fought for britain pretty much everywhere in the world afte 1857. i know why, because you were slaves of the british, and you’re still proud of it. thats why one i***t in this thread was boasting about his family serving in the british army.
as for hindus being conquered by muslims. u want to consider the fact that powerful civilizations like the persian empire were swallowed by the arabs? the same arabs that tried to invade india were trounced by hindus until they retreated. india (and europe) is the only entity to successfully resist islam. and hindus were fighting muslims for 1000 yrs before you came. your fight doesnt even start with the first guru.
just because hindus dont make up fancy stories or boast about their martialness, u come here and spout your crap.
ill talk to you i***ts the next time i hail a cab.
August 6th, 2007 at 10:14 pm
Sikhs in UK that fight are those that have nothing to live for…gang bangers…i***ts who are pretty much like Muslim gangbangers. No future…no prospects, live off dads money and think its smart driving his flashy car…these ppl are the BRAVE Sikhs who “defend” their girls from getting converted.
Hindus have better prospects..get better grades…ARENT gangbangers and think its stupid to BE gangbangers….are generally maturer and have bright prospects.
Its not like youre comparing like for like.
Read the Zafarnama if you wanna know about Guru Gobind Singh proclaiming to be an idol smasher….its a well known verse.
From my experience…Tamils DEFINATELY dominate Toronto….vancouver ive heard is Sikh domain…and london…well, ive seen some nutter Tamils about and I hear that most gangs fear them. But who cares?……..who cares about whos ppl are the nuttiest and most willing to fight?…you wanna know who are MOST willing to fight?…MUSLIMS….regardless of background..whether they be pakistani, bangladeshi somalian..nigerian…THEY are the “badboys”..and since when have they been seen as brave and strong?…we all know they attack “en masse”…
August 6th, 2007 at 10:27 pm
sikh…its funny how you mention how there were less sikhs than hindus and so army sizes would have been vastly different aswell etc etc…its like you are comparing the Hindu population with the Sikh population and then implying that the comparison holds true in a war time sense. Thats pretty stupid. Its pretty obvious that populations consist of non combatants…women, children, those incapable (elderly, infirm/disabled), those with lack of warrior skills). Unfortunately India and its kingdoms werent united…Hindu warriors from the north would never have faught in campaigns with tamil warriors from the south. But if all the Hindus warriors of India WERE united, then theres no doubt what would have happened to any invader. Quite simply they would have been vanquished. But alas…the subcontinents diversity laid waste to that. Sikh aremies could be big..and had many Hindus (and muslims i guess) in them too…..Hindus held high positions in Maharaj Ranjit Singhs armies…when Sikhs faught hill rajas, often Hindus themselves would join the forces against the hill rajas who were Hindu. You make out as if it was Sikh versus the world, when it just wasnt like that.
August 6th, 2007 at 10:34 pm
I personally dont agree with anyone taking cheap shots at Sikhs in this thread if unprovoked…and ppl on this site…Hindus…have done so…and yes Sikh, ill admit it….BUT let me point this out……this is tame. This is TOLERANCE. Because had this been a SIKH website, all you would have read would be posts spewing with bile and venom against Hindus. If you are offended by what some ppl have written then just thank your lucky stars that you arent a Hindu reading a Sikh website.
Sikh…by the way…im from Birmingham…Shere punjab and seva?!?!…even NOW?..are you serious?……infact everywhere i go I hear some dumbass proclaiming to be a “S.P” member.
August 7th, 2007 at 12:39 am
listen , you think by projecting your own experiences (i.e being bullied like a loser) onto me you are convincing anyone?
the reality is mate, a lot of the Hindus in Toronto are the Tamils from Eelam and no sikh will dare touch Hindus here, otherwise you will get your a***s kicked and the LTTE Jhanda will fly on your Gurudwaras instead of Nishan Sahib, i seen plenty of cyber cowards like you, at least i put my real name out here unlike you “veerjis”, keep dreaming about the “hardness” and “martialness” of sikhs.
hehehehe sikhs smashing up tamils, the only thing they can smash is empty beer bottles after getting drunk out of their senses, we can all judge things by where the LTTE is and where “martial khalistanis” are.
i will respond to your other nonsense in a bit.
August 7th, 2007 at 2:33 am
ill be honest what the hell is Zafarnama and how credible is it, and lol hahaa your excuse of why hindus never fought back against muslims is the dumbest excuse considering in the 90’s most the sikhs involved in shere punjab were univirsity students and yea some of their lives got destroyed with criminal charges for assaulting muslims but its not their fault that they step up and protect their women, so your saying hindus rather hide behind books in library’s and let their women get targeted by muslims.
Hello i don’t have time to go through that afghani website but you do know afghanis think their invincible they don’t accept the fact that their ancestors were forced to convert that russia raped them and the sikhs did conquere peshware and brought most the pashtans under sikh rule thats a fact, you know majority of the worlds pashtans live in pakistan and their ancestors were the once who were conquered by the sikhs, the sikhs were the first once to conquere foreign lland. Thats a fact no myth and about 84 and congress party and what they did, imagine if the punjab police force and most the sikhs in the punjab were not against khalistanis and turned on the hindus and congress what would of bin the results then, indira gandhi died for her actions now few guys left that need to pay the price but are protected heavily but if the khalistanis didn’t mess it up and go after inocent hindus and sikhs could of come together to fight for justice rather then kill inocent ppl then congress party would of got done in, not all khalistanis were hindu killers many of them fought for justice and even turned the gun on fellow khalistanis who had murdered hindus theirs a google documantry im going to get you watch it and see what really happened moran and another good movie is haweyein to explain what happened.
August 7th, 2007 at 2:41 am
dev lol never supported khalistan if you mind could you prove i have, think its not going to happen i know its not going to happen and glad cuz if it did sikhs would be in big trouble because economically we would suffer and i wouldn’t want my ppl to live in a country that is controlled by extremist thugs who use our religion to kill inocents, and from the village my family is from in punjab almost half the ppl living in our village our hindus and bin living their with the sikhs for generations going back centuries and wouldn’t want to lose them either.
Hurry could you prove tamils fought 70% in INDIAN NATIONAL ARMY lol hahaha because i know for a fact thats wrong because my gramps was part of indian national army and im damn proud of it. But could you please tell me a reference because right now i have to hunt down this book i read few years back regarding unknown armies of world war 2 and in it it claimed that many sikhs had joined the indian national army but yea ill get you the name of that book and read it, and i know for a fact sikhs made up less then 1% of indias population when under british rule yet made up far more then 1% of india’s freedom fighters far far more providing far more freedom fighters for their population.
Dev Sikhism comes from god and you say Hinduism comes from god could you explain how Sikhism comes from Hinduism when god used our gurus to show us a path towards god which we call Sikhism. For everyone making the comments Sikhism is dieing and were falling apart lol hahaha and becoming druggies and alcholics lol hahaha and making fun of sikh women whats happening to hindus especially in India who try acting white, were drug addictions around college’s around India are going through the roof, were hindu girls think sleeping around will improve their social status and believe it’s the cool thing to do, were in all of india’s major city’s you have girls from middle and upper class family’s joining prostitution because it’s the cool thing to do and good way to make extra cash while the guys from these familys are getting addicted to drugs. Yea I can’t defend a lot of sikh girls and how they behave in England but hey hindu girls are just as bad and some are even worste then sikh girls, and hey anyone here bin to housten or new york or California and see how hindu girls behave in America lol next time anyone in new york or California go check out the clubs desis go to for example bollywood night in new york and see how many hindu girls you see with different races and how their behaving grinding up against guys meeting guys in clubs and then taking off with them to their places for sleep overs.
Oh yes could anyone tell me why hindus fought the british to set up another muslim empire to bring back the mughal empire in 1857. Im glad Sikhs didn’t fight for muslims in that war.
August 7th, 2007 at 2:47 am
Dev Says:
August 6th, 2007 at 3:10 pm
“It feels like hindus are scared of muslims in england Their more hindus then Sikhs in England yet Sikhs are the only once who have stood up against the muslims. ”
Wheres the proof ? The truth is you haven’t lived but only live on false myths.
when muslims came after sikh and hindu girls sikhs created a group called shere punjab who bashed muslims up in london and birmingham and around england, the shere punjab protected both sikh and hindu girls, now tell me what did hindus do when muslims came after hindu girls and why did the shere punjab have to protect hindu girls and not the hindus, why didn’t hindus do anything when muslims attack your community yet sikhs fight back when muslims attack their community.
Hey even hindus in england when their arguing with muslims and muslims are insulting hindus talk about the shere punjab and what they did.
For everyone please stop throwiing insults at sikhism because a few khalistanis slapped you around. Because i won’t and never will go low as making fun of hinduism considering i have hindu friends.
For tamils i don’t want to sound like im bad mouthing them because at the end of the day tamil tigers took out rajiv gandhi who was behind the 84 anti sikh riots and owe them for it and i got sri lankan friends.
DB8 kind of shocked at you dude making comments towards sikhs like you did, never thought you would sink low thought you were smart and wouldn’t have to sink low.
Dev i got a life and i did make comments on that website a few month ago but they never got posted but hey i have a life so i never had time to go check all the time but will be replying again on that.
August 7th, 2007 at 2:48 am
Dev tell me if this is myth or the truth, and tell me why sikhs created shere punjab to fight back against muslims and hindus didn’t.
Dev Says:
August 6th, 2007 at 3:10 pm
“It feels like hindus are scared of muslims in england Their more hindus then Sikhs in England yet Sikhs are the only once who have stood up against the muslims. ”
Wheres the proof ? The truth is you haven’t lived but only live on false myths.
when muslims came after sikh and hindu girls sikhs created a group called shere punjab who bashed muslims up in london and birmingham and around england, the shere punjab protected both sikh and hindu girls, now tell me what did hindus do when muslims came after hindu girls and why did the shere punjab have to protect hindu girls and not the hindus, why didn’t hindus do anything when muslims attack your community yet sikhs fight back when muslims attack their community.
August 7th, 2007 at 9:16 am
so dev why did all the hindus in the uk back in the 90’s hide behind the sikhs when muslims would attack.
August 7th, 2007 at 11:13 am
another mentally retarded analysis of the issues from teh Khalistanis
Firstly in respect of the UK lets make it clear that at no instances have the Sikhs rushed to defend Hindus - the issues that they are making noise about may have some commonality but that does not make them the same thing
I was around Southall in the 1990s and I dont remember a single Sikh standing up for Hindus
the truth is that the old communities are dispersing from Southall, Handsworth etc - In their place are comiing Pakistanis, Bengalis Somalis, Tamils East Europeans etc etc
The old timers who ran things are now past their prime - most being born and brought up in Inda and then coming to UK
The younger ones are just not as rugged - And now with comparatively declining population the Pakistani, Tamil, Somali groups are moving into a position of dominance
So the reality is that you have young Sikhs, who are told daily that they are a martial superior race blah blah blah being afraid to take on the more numerous and criminal opponents. The crews of guys who stand up for themselves are invariably criminals themselves
Whats left is a flotsam of fanatical, pathetic Sikh youth living on the mentally disturbed myths and lies of physical superiority being unable to hold their own against the others
So what do they do - they try and find an easy target - The Hindus
Most Hindus have generous feelings towards Sikhs and so we find this reatrded bunch of so called religious Sikh youth focussing all their ‘warrior spirit’ against the Hindus (most of whom are not even aware that theres supposed to be a clash going on)
bunch of pathetic weak minded fools
August 7th, 2007 at 11:28 am
and for the further information for the proponents of the warrior race LOL
Punjab is about 45% Hindu
In the UK Punjabi population Hindus are around 20% (being reflective of the rural mix of Punjab)
This has helped in giving the mental retards a skewed impression of being Punjabi
Unlike in India they are not enough Punjabi Hindus in UK to unite into groups although there was always plenty of us involved in ‘activities’ with Sikhs friends etc
the other main India communites are those who have arrived via Kenya both Gujurati and Punjabi - they tend to be more business oriented, western oriented and generally less inclined to violence (this hold true of both Hindus and Sikhs)
Thus we see hwo young mental retard Khalistanis are brough up with mentally disturbed myths and lies, combine that with the mix as stated above and you have the perfect formula for total mental and sexual breakdown
I.E. the modern day fanaatical Khalistani youth walking around Southall looking for RSS agents or Indian Government (Bahman) conspiracies beacuse he cant fight the Muslims, cant get a girlfriend, and is full of venom and hate
August 7th, 2007 at 11:39 am
“This is TOLERANCE. Because had this been a SIKH website, all you would have read would be posts spewing with bile and venom against Hindus.”
Db8, You’re absolutely right.If any Hindu goes on any sikh site and try to give the Hindu point of view then they’re faced with total abuse and then banned.Least Hindu Voice is letting these same people give their views how stupid they may seem.That’s what you call open debate.But still for these jokers thats not even good enough because all they want is all Hindus to ar** lick them and believe all the anti-Hindu properganda they promote and I bet even then they wont be satisified.The truth is they’re living on myths and lies and they suffer from total insecurties like this Sikh who has to take 15 hours writing his long posts with loads of HAHAs and LOLs and shera punjab worship because he’s psyhcologicaly affected by the truth being told by most of us.
August 7th, 2007 at 12:44 pm
Yeh there is alot of insult coming from a few Hindu members on this website and there is a reaction. This guy Sikh in return has simply giving the members who were throwing cheap insults at Sikhs a few home truths. Sorry to burst your bubble but Sikh does have a point regarding the amount of Hindu woman marrying/dating muslim men in INDIA! Now am not saying that our lot are any better cause our woman do the same here in the U.K but the numbers are far less.
Regarding the Sikh girl who ” reverted ” to Islam she is now back with her family according to a few of the boys involved in SAS and she won’t talk about what happend with these ” muslims ” the police are not taking the matter any further. Though one thing great to see everyone who turned out in there Hundreds to demonstrate outside Midlands Police HQ.
dB8 excellent point you made regarding Maharaja Ranjit Singh forces Hindus did hold high positions in his Forces and it was not Sikhs versus the entire world LOL. Regarding SP mate they are not the Original SP that were around in the 80s and 90s different kettle of Fish mate.
Som you made a few solid points. To answer your question ” why Sikhs don’t want to accept that until 1909 ” the best way i can explain this to anyone is before 1909 the lines between Sikhi and Hinduism were blurred Sikhi at the time of the Gurus aswell as Maharaja Ranjit Singh time was practised very differently to how it is practised now i.e Official Doctrine. It was Maharaja Ranjit Singh himself who installed the lifesize statue of Lord Vishnu in the Golden Temple. As for Kushwant Singh he is more of a Fiction writer……..lol
Sonya am getting the impression that you think EVERY modern day Sikh is pro-khalistani or if they disagree with your Hindutva theory. Sorry lovely but Punjabi as it is spoken today has been heavly diluted but never the less Punjabi did begin its Origins from Sanskirt.
Your Jatt Shudra Friend.
August 7th, 2007 at 12:53 pm
So anyway on another note what do you guys make of this???
http://youtube.com/watch?v=aL-o-DuSit0
&
http://www.indiatvnews.com/level2_tmpl3.aspx?path=0/132
In a joint operation conducted by India TV and Tehelka, dera chief’s driver Khatta Singh revealed about Dera chief Gurmeet Ram Raheem Singh raping several sadhvi’s and about his hand in the murders of two persons.
DERA SACHA SAUDA CHIEF EXPOSED, DRIVER REVEALS ALL
In a joint operation conducted by India TV and Tehelka, dera chief’s driver Khatta Singh revealed about dera chief Gurmeet Ram Raheem Singh raping several sadhvis and about his hand in the murders of two persons.
Khatta Singh revealed that Ranjit Singh, brother of a dera sadhavi who was repeatedly raped by dera chief, was killed because her sister told him about her sexual molestation after which Ranjit started to avoid dera. watch video
Dera members also suspected his hand behind the inflammatory anonymous letter supposedly written by a dera sadhavi to the Prime Minister in December 2002, following this Punjab and Haryana High Court instructed CBI to carry out further investigations. The copy of that letter is with India TV . watch video
Khatta Singh also revealed that Ranjit had spoken about a threat to his life and a month before he was killed; he was called to the dera to apologise.
Reacting to the India TV-Tehelka sting operation SGPC Chief Avtaar Singh Makkar said that Gurmeet Ram Raheem singh should be severely punished as he has hurt religious sentiments of the Sikhs and is a Criminal.
SGPC leader Manjit Singh Calcutta thanked India TV and Tehelka for the operation and asked government to take strict action against dera chief.
While Patna Sahib’s Chief Jatthedar Gyani Iqbal Singh said that Ram Raheem Singh is associated with anti-national agencies and took over as dera chief from Satnam Singh at gun point. He also asked Central and Haryana government to take quick action and put him behind bars.
Meanwhile, top sources in the CBI confirmed that three sadhvis of the dera have now gone on record before them alleging rape against the dera head Gurmeet Ram Rahim.
August 7th, 2007 at 1:07 pm
sikh….i didnt insult sikhs..and I wouldnt. I have many Sikh friends..and being Hindu, I wouldnt stoop so low as to insult Sikhs (or anyone else) without provocation. Im not stupid enough to make comments on Sikh girls, because I know full well that sadly, Hindu girls are just as bad. You mentioned Hindu girls in new york. I stayed in new york a few summer girls and believe me, Sikh girls are just as bad. Its a problem BOTH our communities share and its stupid of Hindus to make comments on Sikh girls and just as stupid for Sikhs to make out as if its a sole Hindu problem when Sikh girls are just as bad.
As for my comment that you probably found offensive…I apologise BUT…I was being truthful…and was NOT referring to decent Sikhs. Hindus DO attain the highest grades, Hindus DO go onto further education in higher percentages, Hindus families DO focus on education and sometimes solely on education. The Sikhs that spout venom, the Sikhs that talk crap about how they saved Hinduism and how Hindus wouldnt be alive without them etc etc…these are the typical stay at home, live off dads money, stay in college for 6 years type of fools. The ones that support khalistan (even though they know nothing about the concept), hate on Hindus for “something that happened in 84″ (but they dont actually KNOW the history of it all) and generally have a superiority complex. and sadly, theres ALOT of Sikhs out there like that. I DO believe that culture plays an important part…their Punjabi “jatt” superiority complex shines bright and its THESE Sikhs who drag you lot down…and as i said, they are the ones that are vocal, they are the ones that constantly ape on about their superiority and its all rather pathetic. The ppl that I know from Shere Punjab are Factory workers and far from educated…actually I should say “were” because their time in the SP are long gone…that was back in the day when the intentions were good and believe it or not HINDUS were involved too. My dad was. That was back when Hindus and Sikhs were like family in the truest sense. I dont even feel like walking into the Gurudwara near me anymore because all I see is bindrawale glorified in every corner of the place. Now SP…is a name and not a band of ppl…ask any foolish Sikh in handsworth about SP…and they will claim that they and their mates ARE the SP. See all the graffiti on soho road and you will understand how SP name has been high-jacked and how now it doesnt mean much.
The Hindus that settled in the UK were predominantly and overwhelmingly from Gujarat. A people known to be industrious, hard working and a community known for its reliance on education and graft to get ahead. Ill admit that the apathy of gujarati Hindus is infuriating. We have this attitude that if a Hindu girl runs off with a Muslim, then its their choice and their stupidity. The Hindu girls who go off with Muslims tend to be of a certain variety..the type that a typical Gujarati might dismiss as being “one of those types” and subsequently not really worth putting up a fight for. You may THINK that the Sikhs in the UK are noble and helo inncent and vulnerable Sikh girls, but Ive seen MANY instances where Sikhs have tried to “rescue” a sikh girl from the clutches of a muslim, only for the sikh girl to turn around and be aggresive at the SIKHS for interfearing and pushing their opinions on others. Ive seen it LOTS of times (I had some pretty militant Sikh mates back in the day).
August 7th, 2007 at 1:27 pm
general major sin…..believe it or not, ive only JUST read what you posted and foudn it remarkably similar to what I have just written…but what you wrote really captured the essense of what I was trying to say. In this country, sikhs look at the hindu population which is mostly Gujarati and hence more focussed on education and think that gujaratis represent Hindus FULL STOP. It almost like they dont realise that the whole of India is not gujarati speaking. Its like they have no concept of the size and complexity of Hinduism and India…the myriad of different cultures, sizes, shapes, colours etc etc…its also why you will get Sikhs saying hindus are dark skinned….they seen a few dark skinned Gujaratis (yep it happens…gujarat is a HOT place!) and think that HINDUS are therefore dark skinned (even thought ironically Gujaratis can be off all colours from extremely dark to extremely light skinned- not that it matters).
also your point about Hindus being an easy target for these misguided sikh youth…another excellent point that you have made. I totally agree. my example of the SP points towards the fact that back in the day, there may have been noble efforts to protect girls, but nowadays the Sikhs that “are part of these gangs are exactly doing just that - being part of the gang. Nothing noble…just gang banging. But with their inflated egos which is fed by some innane belief that they are superior, they vent their anger out on those around them….and the funny thing is is that now its turning against Hindus. As you pointed out..an easy target.
August 7th, 2007 at 1:54 pm
now for your other points, victories in wars usually don’t depend on whether you are 80% of the country or 1.5% but on how you fight the war and your military technology you idiot, all these excuses for sikhs being unable to take delhi, well the brit forces were even smaller and defeated much larger indian forces, hmm wonder why that is?
next, at the time of muslim invasions they were the dominant force (like US today) and spread all the way from spain to persia in a few years, only in Bharat they had to wait 4 centuries before they could get a proper foothold through Ghori, so how did Hindus survive all those years then before sikhs came?
we don’t need sikhs to save us, more pathetic nonsense, the Marathas already destroyed the Mughal empire before sikhs even had local power.
in 1947 sikhs were living with muslims in one province mainly while Hindus were living with them together all over Bharat, i guess this guy don’t know the difference in the area sizes, you can still go check the population figures of Muslims in Haryana and Himachal (both Hindu states) from before 1947 and compare it to after 1947.
here is what gobind singh did after aurang’s death:
“Guru Gobind Singh despatched for the help of the eldest claimant, the liberal Prince Muazzam, a token contingent of Sikhs which took part in the battle of Jajau (8 June 1707), decisively won by the Prince who ascended the throne with the title of Bahadur Shah. The new Emperor invited Guru Gobind Singh for a meeting which took place at Agra on 23 July 1707.
http://www.sikh-history.com/sikhhist/gurus/nanak10.html ”
yep, he was busy supporting one mughal for the throne against another.
tamils don’t run anything in toronto, who told you that, your usual drunk jatt sikh buddy from brampton?
see it’s evident to anyone who cares to look, who would really smash whom when you consider the fact that khalistanis even in their hey day could never face the indian army openly let alone carry out a military operation like this:
“The worst of these took place in the fall of 1996 when 1,200 Sinhalese soldiers died in a single attack on the Mullaitivu army base.
http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/1997/4/1997-4-11.shtml ”
see most of these sikh extremists you see on here are just losers, they live on false history and myths, like them saving Hindus or single handedly bringing down the Mughal empire or bringing Bharat independence (ya righttttttttt) or about how they are so “hard and martial”, when Hindus bust these myths they get angry and make up funny stories of “sikhs stamping on tamils” or “sikhs being genocided in Punjab” and they are usually drunk when they do this.
August 7th, 2007 at 2:18 pm
“Yeh there is alot of insult coming from a few Hindu members on this website and there is a reaction.”
Yeh right.As I recall the beginning of this thread was started between Hindus discussing are sikhs Hindus or not.Which most agreed they were not.The insults really started when the Khalistanis came on board.So instead of blaming us go and check yourself.
August 7th, 2007 at 2:24 pm
“dev lol never supported khalistan if you mind could you prove i have, think its not going to happen i know its not going to happen and glad cuz if it did sikhs would be in big trouble because economically we would suffer and i wouldn’t want my ppl to live in a country that is controlled by extremist thugs who use our religion to kill inocents”
Read my post again and see what I’m saying that you’re a khalistani who doesn’t want Khalistan but the truth is that most of your posts carry khalistani propaganda and anyone can see that.
August 7th, 2007 at 2:25 pm
“so dev why did all the hindus in the uk back in the 90’s hide behind the sikhs when muslims would attack. ”
Where’s the evidence ?
August 7th, 2007 at 2:29 pm
For everyone please stop throwiing insults at sikhism because a few khalistanis slapped you around.
We’re not throwing insults at Sikhism because you and your types are doing a very good job at it yourselves.Now about this nonsense about cowardly khalistanis slapping us around well why dont you turn up ands see if that is a reality or fantasy.I’m ready to meet you and then you can provide the proof.
August 7th, 2007 at 2:49 pm
“Dev Sikhism comes from god and you say Hinduism comes from god could you explain how Sikhism comes from Hinduism when god used our gurus to show us a path towards god which we call Sikhism.”
Well you’ve been proved wrong many times in the past as you can never provide any evidence apart ‘I know for fact or lololol or hahahahaha or shera punjab’ I’ve challenged you then to show us that sikhism doesn’t come from Hinduism with the real facts and not from the homemade theories from the Khalistani super intelligence village committee. So are you going to prove to us that original sikhi didn’t come from Hinduism or are you like the time before you’re just going conveniently disappear again ?
August 7th, 2007 at 3:42 pm
I wonder why it was the Marathas who invaded Punjab in 1758 and helped to cleanse the Hari Mandir Sahib?
Ans wasn’t it the Sikh Rajah of Patiala who was prounounced Maharajh by Ahmed Shah Abdali ?
When the leader of the Afghans in Inda, Ghulam Qadir tried to oust the Marathas from Delhiu in 1788 and was defeated by the Maratha/Jaat army it was a Sikh chief, Baghel SIngh who supproted the Afghans
(it is from this story that the modern day retards have made teh myth fo the Sikhs taking Delhi ??!! LOL Anyway the Marathas killed Ghulam Qadir and drove the Afghans from their homes) (oh yeah and this wwas after the same Sikh Cheifs signed a treaty of alliance with the Marathas)
And whats the story of the Sikhs who attacked innocent piligrims at the Kumbh Mela before being defeated by Hindu soldiers of the East India Company who were on a pilgrimage
Was it not a Hindu General, Zorawar Singh Dogra who fought in Ladakh, Tibet and Kashmir depsite the treachery of the Sikh general Mohan Singh ??
Ands what with the Sikh Rajahs joiing the British in the Anglo Sikh wars (funny how all the modern Sikh historians ignore this point LOL)
History cant be read in a straight line - all this bullshit about the Sikhs from outer space endlessly suffering and saving the poor Hindus is just a load of crap
a whole culture built on lies and deception
August 7th, 2007 at 4:40 pm
here is gobind singh’s zafarnama (found in dasam granth):
http://www.sridasam.org/dasam?Action=Page&p=2263
in it he says:
“ਮਨਮ ਕੁਸ਼ਤਹਅਮ ਕੋਹਿਯਾਂ ਪੁਰਫਿਤਨ ॥ ਕਿ ਆਂ ਬੁਤ ਪਰਸਤੰਦੁ ਮਨ ਬੁਤਸ਼ਿਕਨ ॥੯੫॥
मनम कुशतहअम कोहियां पुरफितन ॥ कि आं बुत परसतंदु मन बुतशिकन ॥९५॥
I vanquished the vicious hill chiefs, they were idol-worshippers and I am idol-breaker.95.
http://www.sridasam.org/dasam?Action=Page&p=2271&english=t&id=158116 ”
Then there is that story khalistanis relate to each other about one of the guru’s sikhs (i think it was under hargobind) goes and cuts off the nose of a devi idol and the guru says it’s proof of the uselessness of “idol worship” or something to that affect, i have not checked the authenticity of this story but it is at any rate in circulation among the “veerjis” of the “martial race”.
since general sin brought up some historical points, it’s also interesting the 2 khalsa sikh converts lal singh and tej singh who turned traitor during anglo sikh wars are now claimed 2 be “bahman” even though they became baptised khalsa sikhs much before, this is done to shift blame onto Hindus, but if any Hindu joined the khalsa and did great things, he would be labelled “gursikh” but all the bad apples among the sikhs are “Hindus and bahmans”.
But they never mention Hindus like Diwan Mul Raj who ended up disgraced and lost everything trying to keep ranjit singh’s kingdom together.
so the agenda is simple, keep blaming Hindus for everything bad in their community (whether it is caste fights, alcoholism, drugs or female infanticide), at the same time spread nonsense about them saving us or bringing us independence (while they happily sucked upto the british and got cushy army jobs while they were there).
August 7th, 2007 at 5:06 pm
sikh , when 1857 began initially there was no plan of making bahadur shah zafar it’s head initially, but sikhs didn’t even join it in the initial stages, care to explain why?
you are telling us that while sikhs somehow remembered all the mughal atrocities and that was the reason they didn’t join, but they were ok fighting for the same people who just a few years ago destroyed ranjit singh’s empire, hmm is that it?
the real reason was that sikhs took such a beating from the brits that as long as they were ruling in Bharat and the grovelling started in 1857.
INA, this was an army that primarily drew it’s recruits from Indian’s abroad (mainly Tamils) and soldiers who ended up as POW’s to the Japanese during WW2, as we all know sikhs were a high % of the british colonial army, so naturally they were also high among the POW’s and joined the INA instead of mugging in Japanese jails.
anyway if sikhs were such patriots then why was your community so highly overrepresented in the brit colonial army and why can’t you guys name any other famous freedom fighters that gave their lives other than kartar singh and udham singh?
Bhagat Singh was an atheist and both him and his uncle Ajit Singh were more influenced by Arya Samaj in their younger years than sikhism.
“When I was studying in middle my father, who was a sympathiser of Arya Samaj, took me to all annual gathering of Arya Samaj. There I heard a lecture on the benefits of wearing swadeshi cloth. He [the speaker] explained how the use of foreign cloth was proving a drain on the wealth of the nation. On my return, I called the village weaver, and the whole family took to swadeshi, From that day my feeling went on increasing that the alien rule was undesirable.
S. Dilbagh Singh, one of’ my cousins, used to study in a Mission School where the teachers were British missionaries. I used to take it ill. I insisted on my uncle that we must start a school in Jullundur where we should have teachers of our country who should be patriots. The local Arya Samaj wanted to start a school there. Lala Sunder Dass, A prominent Arya Samajist, agreed to become Headmaster. So my uncle started a school in Jullundur. I passed my Matriculation Examinallon from that School. Sunder Dass was a great patriot. He used to preach patriotism in his speeches in school. Being a religious institution, they used to regard the Muslims as foreigners. He wrote a book called Pearl Necklace containing stories of Rajput bravery and heroism, particularly of Rang Pratap, also of Sikh Gurus. In my opinion these religious institutions have done a great harm to the country by creating division among communities of India. Sunder Dass used to preach swadeshi. As a result about 70 per cent of student, in that school took to swadeshi. It was about I893 or 1894. After finishing my education there I came to D.A.V. College. Lahore. Principal Hans Raju was very kind to me and he used to tell us about the history of other countries.
http://www.shahidbhagatsingh.org/about_ajit.htm ”
“We did not trust Sikh states. Swami Parkasha Nand (though not openly) helped us a lot by visiting states as a Vedic missionary. Swami Shankara Nand also did some thing in the line.
http://www.shahidbhagatsingh.org/about_ajit.htm ”
On another note, this should expose all the nonsense about sikhs bringing Bharat independence, this is from an English official who was commenting no how the Arya Samaj was spreading the fire of the freedom movement in Punjab:
“Least of all did any one question
the loyalty of the Sikhs. Many of them believed that British rule was
the fulfilment of a prophecy of one of their martyred _gurus_, and the
Sikh regiments were regarded as the flower of the Native Army.
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16444/16444-8.txt ”
yep, this community supposedly made the most sacrifices and saved Hindus and Bharat once again (this time from the Brits) lol.
August 7th, 2007 at 5:41 pm
Well most of the Gujaratis that are in the UK are from groups that don’t usually fight and most of them are also from Africa and are the traders and business people who are usually soft in any community.
Anyway in Montreal you get the Kolis direct from the villages of rural south Gujarat. The Sikh jatts who think they are going to have easy time going to the garbas getting the gujarati girls( edited )out of them and then want to become friends with these Hindus. SO Sikh why don’t you ask your relatives and/or friends over there.
Also there is usally a Jatt sikh propensity to fight in groups. But when the Gujus also come out in groups and ( edited )out of them. They become all friendly with these hindus.
You should look at the faces of your kinsmen when they get the ( edited ) out of them. Beaten by the gujaratis, to the point of kissing up to them.
I’ve seen fights where your Jatt Sikh brothers came in 3 to 4 carloads with bats, knives and steel rods to beat the weak gujus. There was a 2 gujus drinking beer on the street and one took a beer bottle and smashed the bottle on the 1st attackers head. All of a sudden a whole cricket team of Gujus showed up out of the hall and your jatt sikh brothers ran away leaving their fellow members behind. The ones that got trapped behind got such a (edited)that they had to call the police to save themselves.
August 7th, 2007 at 6:57 pm
http://www.tehelka.com/story_main30.asp?filename=Ne020607Much_vice_CS.asp
this article should be shown to all khalistanis. the “baba” was gurmeet singh, born to a jat sikh family and a close associate of dreaded khalistani terrorist gurjant singh rajasthani.
August 7th, 2007 at 7:02 pm
This “sikh” is clearly deluded cuz I know some Tamils in UK and I never heard of any big sikh-tamil fights let alone sikhs beating up Tamils.
Even in toronto, the interaction between the 2 communities is fairly limited since most Tamils do not live in Brampton, I knew a few of these sikhs back in the day, one of them was some named “Surinder Dhaliwal”, the most “martial” thing he did was get drunk on weekends and then at times he would go into long rants on how sikhs “saved” Hindus, i didn’t know this (edited) well, some Gujarati friend of mine told me about him and later when I met him I told him that if he didn’t shut up talking about Hindus we would make an example out of him like we made an example out of some white guy who made fun of the “darkie tamils”, anyway never heard anymore about his rants from my Gujarati friend again, he probably confined his ranting to the Gurudwara after the warning.
so that’s all there is to all this fake boasts they do hiding behind their pc’s.
August 7th, 2007 at 8:54 pm
drawing the line: Sikhs are not Hindus for sure.
Sikhism had masters who had hindu parents but then it has been the case with all the religions of the world. Christ was born as Jewish and I am sure that Mohd. Prophet was also born as a non-muslim. That does not mean that all the muslims and christians are Jewish.
If we start relating religion with lineages of their founders then, we would all end up being related to every other human being on this earth and as a son of one African mother (according to a scientific theory).
That means that not only we all are one but we all are distantly related brothers and sisters according to Hindus. So we are incests!
Wah Wah Hindu ji..
August 8th, 2007 at 6:44 am
Rakesh and Dev
The subcontinent has always been rich and progressive. The present day progress is nothing new. Various countries in the subcontinent had their glory days. The museums around the world as well as at home are full of what the subcontinent was all about. I am not saying that India is going to fall apart. There have been various countries emerging in the subcontinent from time to time (anywhere from 7 to 560 at any given time period). The evidence is all there in the history. It does not matter whether people here accept what I have stated or not. The economic disparity between the regions is becoming rather too severe and this continued tension would ultimately create unpleasant results in the next 100 years or so.
Respectfully
Hanji
August 9th, 2007 at 5:05 am
‘From a Christian extremist who along with his fellow extremists has been sending such links and posts to HV. We thought let our readers have look at the anti-Hindu properganda being spread by these people these days.’
Admin
http://www.sbcbaptistpress.org/BPnews.asp?ID=26159
August 9th, 2007 at 8:41 am
Hanji
i dont get your point
never has subcontinent been as politicaly stable as now in terms of boundaries
The present day set up of nations seems to suggest that it will remain so for quite some time barring some catastrophe
The United States has huge income differentials - its not about to split up
what we will probably see is increased agitation from the ‘have nots’ to seek their place under the sun
And by the way , the Sikhs are not part of the ‘have nots’
That ’struggle’ is all about the establishment of supremacy
August 9th, 2007 at 8:45 am
Harish Duggirala why didn’t hindus kick out muslims in 1947, why did india have the second biggest muslim population in the world when hindus were forced to leave pakistan, why sikhs kick muslims out of sikh areas.
Harish duggirala i don’t know anything about the freedom movement so its hard for me to give an opinion but regarding 1857 the hindus rebelled because of rumors that cow fat was used for their guns and muslims rebelled because they thought pig fat was being used so sikhs had nothing to piss them off and coudl you tell me why the hindu rebels against the british had to kiss the muslims feet and help them rebuild the muslim empire was it they were to scared to fight the british with out the muslims helping. But what was the difference between hindu freedom fighters and the way they fought and sikh freedom fighters and the way they fought, dude sikhs i know had to have contributed far more freedom fighters for their population also considering hindus make up 40 times the sikh population should have alot more influence on the freedom movement, but compare what the average sikh has done in the history of india against muslim invaders including afghans and persians against the british and against pakistan and then tell me who’s done more for india im pretty sure sikhs take that one especially after pakistani’s top military leaders credited sikhs more then anyone else during the 47 and 65 and 71 wars and im going to get you the books name that talks about that written by a former pakistani military leader with interviews from top pakistani officals and see how they make it sound like the sikhs saved india’s ass from pakistan.
But harish tell me if you compare the average sikh to the average hindu who’s done more for india and don’t forget sikh regiment has won more medals for bravery then any other regiment in the indian army.
Harish duggirala you talk about small army’s yea british had a smaller army but they had hundreds of years to build their empire technology and army sikhs were fairly new and small in population much smaller then the marathas yet from the size of their population conquered from haryana so from delhi to afghanistan and considering 1762 when only 60 000 sikhs were attacked by an army of 200 000 afghans and being able to defend themselves is one hell of an accomplishment and theirs one or two books im going to get ppl to read by american authors that talk about what the sikhs had to do to create their empire and you compare that with the marathas then tell me who had done more the average maratha or the average sikh because dude i don’t want to use us being in small numbers as an excuse im just telling you the odds we had to beat and fight we had much smaller army’s then the marathas yet accomplished so much with are small army’s i bet if we had army’s big as the marathas we would of accomplished hell alot more then the marathas and i know that.
Hey dev you never answered my question why didn’t hindus defend themselves against muslims in england and the sikhs did. Common tell me. Don’t avoid my question.
Selvanayagan Veerasingham dude for all i know that sikh may of just slapped the taste out of your mouth and made you run crying to your mommy. Tamils don’t run toronto i even tried finding any article about it and couldn’t
Harish Duggirala could you prove tamils run toronto because i couldn’t find anything about tamils running toronto but found articles about tamils killing tamils and how the two major gangs have taken major blows and they broken down to smaller crews because the original guys are either dead or in jail, and for the record bin to brampton and ill tell you i agree the punjabis their are drunks and think to much of themselves but i can tell the khalistanis from their slapped your ass around growing up which is sad because those brampton punjabis tend to be all talk and no walk and cocky as hell all thinking their black but in vancouver different story punjabis their know who they are proud of their culture and walk it before they talk it, but i found articles talking about punjabi gangs growing powerfull and now sophisticated in western canada were their spreading from vancouver to all across western canada how their considered the most violent criminal gangs, the hells angels are the once who run toronto and every city and run canada their the worlds most dangerous biker gang and most dangerous biker gang in america and run canada, yet the punjabi gangs are moving into their territory’s and the police are scared of this because they know the punjabis are super violent and so are the hells angels but the hells angels don’t want to go to war they want to stay low key were as punjabis don’t care about the police because they get away with shooting ppl in the clubs i mean theirs a drive by in vancouver on a weekly bases usually done by punjabis and the police never bust them for shootings or murders. On top of that in the white city’s with low punjabi population these punjabi gangs are recruiting white guys now to do their dirty work and using white guys to spread their gang influence on the drug trade in their city’s. Police are scared because in three years they have grown massivily sophisticated were as their taking over the drugs smuggled in and the police are trying to find ways to stop them.
But this gang shit isn’t something to brag about because thats alot of punjabis that could of bin great sikhs if someone had could of led them in the right direction for example these guys should of gotten more involved in sports because i wish i could see more sikhs in professional sports but hey to bad hindus can’t keep up with sikhs when it comes to producing athletes i mean 40 times as many hindus then sikhs you would expect 40 times as many hindu athletes but nope its actually the sikhs who are producing real athletes.
Actually in vancouver they got weightlifting and wrestling clubs set up to keep sikhs away from gangs and the sikhs are producing the top weightlifters and wrestlers in canada the khalsa weight lifting school is probably the best weightlifting school if not the best in canada producing national champions and canada has the sikh by the name of arjan bhullar a national canadian champ in wrestling representing canada in the olympics and that boxer andrew kooner,, oh yea lets not forget it was the sikhs who led india’s field hockey team to winning gold medals i mean it was sikhs who at time produced more athletes to represent india in the olympics then hindus. But harish i go to canada alot so don’t come here telling myth about tamils because your ass got slapped around growing up because they don’t run anything but those brampton punjabis are cocky as hell and i can tell your hate for sikhs but hey take those tamils from toronto to vancouver and see those same tamils run back to sri lanka or end up getting murdered because the punjabis from vancouver are the once who are begining to run stuff and the tamils never ran anything.
August 9th, 2007 at 9:32 am
db8 sorry i just misunderstood you, and what you say about shere punjab and factory’s and being out isn’t true dude their doing the community alot of good right now but ill explain that but first i can agree about the khalistanis these same khalistanis are the idiots who are turning young sikhs from the gurdwara failing to educate are youth about sikhi and robbing the gurdwaras and running them in corrupt fashion these same b****rds are the once who would collect money from sikhs saying oh the money is going to india for the 84 riot victims then turn around and buy their own buisnesses and houses and show no evidence about sending that money to 84 riot victims and when anyone asked were the money was or evidence for were the money went these khalistanis would beat them up which led to many sikhs to be afraid to say anything to them and let them take over the gurdwaras and run it in corrupt fashion but thats were alot of those shere punjab guys come in on the other forum you talked about the Vaisakhi Mela Riot in handsworth the guy who got almost killed was one of those corrupt mother fu*** and the guys who almost killed him were those old school shere punjab guys and alot of the young shere punjab guys and what they did to him is the same thing they use to do to muslims they didn’t even try killing him fast they tried torturing him to death they cut his arm off kicked him in the head and attacked anyone who tried giving the man medical treatment and started swearing at the police for trying to help the man and told the police to let him die.
But shere punjab was started by khalistanis but alot of the shere punjab guys today have turned on these corrupt khalistanis running are gurdwaras the gurdwara they started in was the handsworth gurdwara which is and was run by khalistanis, sp guys are trying to bring sikhs back and educate them on their faith and take back the gurdwaras so they can start encouraging youth to get more involved and finding solutions to lack of sikhi amongst sikh youth. Even some of the murders of corrupt sikh elders are being blamed on shere punjab members, the original shere punjab gang folded in the late 90’s after they put fear in the muslims but im pretty sure 98% of the shere punjab guys were sikhs because of the way alot of them use to talk against india and how they were started but yea their were few hindus who would help them but usually were punjabi hindus.
and about the sikh girl who got forced to convert to islam but came back to sikhi she is talkiing and the family had a keertan to thank everyone for their support and the girl is with the family and the muslims who converted her well from the news report one of them is so scared he is thinking about returning to pakistan.
DB8 about the old shere punjab guys being factory workers is kind of hard to believe unless their the guys who had to spend time in prision for rocking these muslims, becuase most the shere punjab guys got recruited in uni’s in birmingham and then rest of the uk, the sp gang started in the handsworth gurdwara and their were few hindus who helped sp but it was very very few and most of them were punjabi hindus but shere punjab was 98% sikh. But yea khalistnais have chased sikhs away from sikhi because i don’t see what their doing for the sikh youth accept screaming khalistan.
but shere punjab’s peak was in the mid and late 90’s and most the members then were 16-25 years old now these guys are late 20’s early 30’s but still young.
Selvanayagan Veerasingham i found an article about the london fight between sikhs and tamils that led to the pakistani restaurant owner being killed because his relative tried stopping the fight, but the article doesn’t talk about the fight between the tamils and sikhs to much just says the relative tried stopping it and is why he was attacked by sikhs, but i want to find this news report i saw when this happened and saw on the internet last year were the reporter talks about how a group of tamils arrived to fight another group of sikhs and when the sikhs got on top of the tamils and assualted them brutally before the pakistani restuarant owners relative came in trying to stop the fight.
August 9th, 2007 at 9:37 am
dev little reminder, what did the hindus do against muslims in england
and what did the sikhs do against the muslims in england. Don’t talk just answer
Another sad thing is alot of you guys say these khalistanis always bad mouthing hindus but i never here about hindus bad mouthing these khalistanis to their faces but these khalistanis bad mouth you guys to your faces, so why do you guys have to come on the internet and insult sikhs, i don’t care if you want to insult khalistanis do it to their faces rather then bring in all sikhs and insult them all becuase you guys got slapped around. By khalistanis by muslims and list goes on.
August 9th, 2007 at 9:53 am
Harish Duggirala your the one who feels so insecure by sikhs you have to hide behind a computer and make attacks at sikhs and claim tamils run everything when they don’t so now your talking about myth and pumping up these tamils when sri lankan tamils make fun of indian hindus calling them weak, and claim sikhs are to scared to touch them in london when infact sikhs have smashed them in london, toronto sikhs are morans ill say it bin their they piss me off so cocky, but take those tamils to vancouver and they would DIE, thats why punjabis are getting more dangerous over their yet in toronto tamils are getting weaker and never really found anything showing that they run anything all i found was tamils killing tamils and the police throwing them in jail and many of them ending up just dead like those two original gangs.
August 9th, 2007 at 10:58 am
“Sonya am getting the impression that you think EVERY modern day Sikh is pro-khalistani or if they disagree with your Hindutva theory”
The modern day sikh is not sikh at all! The modern day sikh has changed is name from Jaspal to Paul and has distanced himself from his roots in order to be accepted by his white and black friends. My own secretary is what you would describe as a modern day sikh. She has gone as far as changing her name by Deed Poll from Sharan to Sharon. In order to distance herself from her bearded, turban wearing community, she has married a scottsman and named her daughter “Jessica Higgins”. This is where your “modern day sikh” is heading.
This part of your community is, however, not my concern. I am more concerned about Khalistani dim wits who seem to have made it their sole mission in life to hound the Hindu community.
I am not entirely a fan of Hindutva theory since the Hindutva Alliance is pro-Sikh. I am of the opinion that sikhs tend to ruin the good reputation of Hindus and should, therefore, be left to their own devices in order to determine their own destiny. Just take a look at some of the comments made by your community, you will notice nothing but hate and resentment towards Hindus - their own forefathers.
August 9th, 2007 at 11:27 am
Prabhjot, the following is an incorrect statement:
“Sikhism had masters who had hindu parents but then it has been the case with all the religions of the world”
This is not true in the case of Sanatana Dharma and Judaism - it is true for all other major religions today.
We have to look at how these new “religions” are started and what their motives are:
Chrisianity is an offshoot of Judaism, it was brought to europe by a missionary named Paul. The intention was to make judaism easier to understand/follow for the europeans. It is now viewed as a different religion
Islam is an offshoot of Judeo - Christianity. The founder of islam was a statesman and an army general named mohammad. Islam borrowed heavily from Judeo-Christianity. It enabled mohammad to conquer many countries and establish arab imperialism. It is now viewed as a different religion
Buddhism is an offshoot of Hinduism. It started out as a simplified version of Hinduism in order to make it easier for the Orient and Europe to follow. It is also now viewed as a seperate religion.
Sikhism is also an offshoot of Hinduism. It was nothing more than Hinduism made easier for people to follow. It is also now viewed as a different religion.
It is a fact of life that all these offshoot “religions” will ultimately demonise and compete with the Religion which gave birth to them. To witness a new religion in the making one just has to look at all these “God-Men” springing up all over India, who preach nothing more than Hinduism under a different name, with a few new aspects chucked in which will then act as a catalyst to form a new religion.
August 9th, 2007 at 11:27 am
Harish Duggirala sikhs had to fight muslim army’s like the afghans that were alot bigger then the total population of sikhs in the 18th century sikhs use to fight against all odds and hundred years after the khalsa was born are empire was born, why it take hindus so long to get freedom oh don’t forget the sikhs gave some blow to the mughuls the afghans gave some major blow if not the biggest blows to the mughuls and the persians as well gave blows to the mughuls but yes even though their are more hindus in india then muslims in india bangledesh pakistan india afghanistn and iran why did it take hindus so long to get freedom, i mean sikhs were able to fight army’s bigger then them yet hindus should of created army’s bigger then the muslims and crushed them, the odds were for the hindus while the odds were against the sikhs so Harish Duggirala why was that, why it take you guys hundreds of years even though you guys had the odds for you. i know you guys fought in those hundreds of years but you guys could of created massive army’s that should of just crushed the mughuls, like sikhs they had small army’s but fought army’s much bigger then them.
hindus make up how much of south asia’s population and how much of south asia did they control, and how much do sikhs make up of south asia’s population and how much land they control.
Also against the british i don’t know why so many sikhs sacirficed their lives for the british maybe because for most their rule they treated sikhs exeptionally well going down to divide and conquere treat one group good and the others as slaves, but the sikhs who sacirficed their lives and went and fought in world war 1 and 2 were brave men because many would fight till the last man and not surrender in some of the battles, but yes thousands of the brave sikhs who died for england if they had become freedom fighters they would of done a better job and would of made some extremely dangerous freedom fighters and would of gotten india’s freedom alot sooner but at the time sikhs didn’t have any leaders to guide them properly and that leadership is lacking today. But to the idiots who think the sikhs who fought world war 1 and 2 were cowards since when are ppl who go off to fight wars cowards, those sikhs even though loyal under the british unfortunatly were still extremely brave men, why they stay loyal to the british is a huge question mark for me but i believe it has to do with lack of leadership and the way england strategised with divide and conquere treat one group good and the other like shi* so you get one groups loyalty and use them to hurt the other group thats how england ruled india for so long.
Also like to know why india has the second biggest muslim population in the world after muslims in pakistan kicked out the hindus from pakistan and why sikhs were successfull at kicking out the muslims from their areas in 1947. hindus got kicked out of pakistan but the hindus couldn’t kick the muslims out of india thats funny as hell, sikhs got kicked out of pakistan but the muslims in punjab got kicked out of sikh areas they made muslims shi* bricks in punjab muslims were packing and running from the sikhs over to pakistan. The sikhs went insane they went mental in 47 heck muslims would hang themselves rather then run into a sikh.
August 9th, 2007 at 7:45 pm
sikh the only one who thinks “sikhs smashed tamils” is a loser like you cuz every1 knws nothing of the sort happened except in your deluded fantasies.
next, i have my real name out here unlike you losers, that should tell us who is “insecure”, you lot are destined for the dustbin of history anyway (just check your male-female ratio in India) and it’s not really my concern cuz i never considered u lot Hindus in the first place.
next i doubt you know any tamils other than your imagined friends cuz u r 2 much of a loser (actually i doubt u have any friends at all), i think we have one tamil here who already gave his opinion about sikhs and that’s all the one’s i know think, just a bunch of drunk losers like you living on mythology claiming 2 be hard, i think the comparison between LTTE and khalistani cyber warriors tells us a lot about this “martial” community and who would kick whose a**.
anyway keep living on in delusions, cuz thts the only consolement for a born loser like u.
August 9th, 2007 at 7:48 pm
I’m sure the moderators of HV feel very sorry for Sikh who must spend 18 hours a day writing his fantasies out as therapy to get over feeling inferior.He keeps on repeating the same myths again and again.You’ll never see any Sikh site let any Hindus post their points of view as they feel insecure but HV is doing a great job by releasing all points of view even if a lot of it is repeated Khalistani properganda.Still at least Hindus dont suffer from feeling insecure it seems.
August 9th, 2007 at 8:03 pm
sikh you keep on blabbering, i already told u at that time muslims were the supreme power, you still haven’t answered how it took 4 centuries for Muslims to get a toe hold in Bharat while great empires like persia fell and were islamisised within a few years after muhammad’s death if Hindus needed you guys saving them?
that’s why it took Hindus so long, because they were not fighting some rump armies of afghans, go check how long muslims ruled in spain before christians got it back, it took them atleast 700 years (700’s to 1492) before muslims were entirely driven out, it took Hindus a similar time from the 11th century (wid ghoris invasions) to 17th cent when Marathas finally destroyed Mughals.
ya ya ya, all those excuses for the brit a*** licking, then why is your community now claiming that you guys brought us independence?
in 1947, i already mentioned Haryana and Himachal where there was a good amount of retaliation by Hindus, the only reason muslims weren’t driven out was cuz india chose 2 be secular, plus u guys lived with muslims in what one province, while Hindus lived with Muslims in almost all provinces, plus why r u so sad about muslims not being expelled, i thought u guys were chums in india against Hindus, after all simranjit mann’s heart still bleeds for Gujarat riots, i also heard Hindus were behind the massacre of those sikhs in kashmir and blamed it on “muslims” to cause fights between the muslim and sikh brothers, hope your newfound brotherhood works out …
August 9th, 2007 at 8:09 pm
lol, wat a joke. it was marathas that broke the back of mughals after two and half decades of fighting, aurangzeb died on the retreat while your guru gobind singh signed a peace treaty with him and you claim you’re the one who defeated mughals. who controlled most of south asia, any nitwit knows it was the marathas, go look up the map before you puke your unintelligible garbage all over the place, anyway hindus have controlled much larger areas. do the cholas ring a bell (controlled all of south east asia), or the mauryas, or lalitaditya - kashmiri hindu king that controlled vast areas in central asia. hindus have fought much bigger armies and won, like shivaji maharaj against the mughals who were the most powerful force at the time, I wonder why hindu marathas won against much larger and well-equipped mughals while your sikh forces were groaning, groveling, and begging for peace treaties with mughals.
as for the world wars and being british boot lickers (something you are proud of), it is nothing to be proud of. i wonder why sikhs started joining british ranks only few years after sikh kingdom collapsed and few years before the revolt. the great freedom bringing sikhs never thought of ppl suffering then, but gladly licked white a$$ just like they do today and helped put down the first war of independence.
August 9th, 2007 at 8:12 pm
at least hindus dont have loser relations with muslims like “world sikh-muslim federation”…lolll.
August 10th, 2007 at 4:11 am
General Sin
The point is that we as a nation are doing is against the unity itself, as Khushwant Singh wrote in his book “The End of India”. Look at what is happening recently during the floods. 1521 (according to official figures) or possibly more are dead and 20 millions are homeless. There are not enough resources and there never will be to look after them. And just read what the extremists did to Taslima Nasreen just yesterday when she was launching her book in Hyderabad. Also the people who became refugees in their own country during Gujurat riots still have not been able to return. What about the Kashmiri Pandits who are still in camps and can not go home. Obviously, there is the government’s role in all this somewhere. How else do you think the scattered and fragmented power centers get established. That’s is exactly what happened in the past. What we are to be talking about is what corrective action the central government can take to avoid the mistakes of the past.
Respectfully
Hanji
August 10th, 2007 at 4:20 am
General Sin
As Nehru said long ago if India was to be “a secular, stable and strong state, then our first consideration must be to give absolute fair play to our minority..”
That unfortunately is not happening.
Respectfully
Hanji
August 10th, 2007 at 11:05 am
Hanji,
You waffle about a lot.
Why do you quote Nehru? Is he supposed to be someone Hindus should respect?
August 10th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
hanji please do point out how “fair play” is not being given towards minorities?
india has what minorities, sikhs, jains, buddhists, parsis, jews, christians, muslims. Of these sikhs, jains, parsis, jews, christians are all better off than Hindus in terms of wealth (buddhists i am not sure), just the muslims lag behind, is this the lack of “fair play” you are talking about (since u copy pasted that quote out of a bbc article about this)?
how exactly is the gov’t at fault if a community lags behind, they made no discriminative laws against them, infact special privileges are given like hajj subsidy and having 4 wives, if Hindus were pushing them down, then how do you explain their success only in “Bollywood”?
Muslims also lag behind in UK while Hindus and Sikhs don’t, so is the UK gov’t not being fair to them?
they even lag behind the Chinese in Malaysia where they have special status as “bhoomi putras” (sons of the soil).
the quote by Nehru also shows his anti Hindu mindset, a state will be secular when it has absolute separation of religion and state and no discrimination based on religion, both of which he violated when he did not implement Uniform Civil Code, next “minorities” are not anymore special than a “majority” and deserve no special consideration, a state’s first consideration should be to treat all it’s citizens equally.
August 10th, 2007 at 3:11 pm
More Khalistani fascist propaganda going on here:
“Sikh sacrifices for freedom
Prior to independence Sikhs were less than 1.5% of the population, but their contribution to the freedom struggle was immense. 77% of those sent to the gallows were Sikh as were 81% of those sentenced to life imprisonment. During the Quit India Movement many indiscriminate arrests were made and Sikhs contributed 70% of the total Punjabis arrested. More than 60% of the 20,000 who joined the Indian National Army were Sikhs.
http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=29601 ”
People like “sikh” are part of this fascist agenda, where they try to prove that these lot saved us (”sikh” had also claimed this here), so they make up nonsense like this, all these lies have been exposed here, khalistani fascists like gurjeet ran away and hid behind his mama’s chunni when we asked him to prove that sikhs made 90% of the sacrifices during freedom movement as he claimed.
imagine how many more lies they are spreading about Hindus, as long as Hindus don’t speak up, liars like “sikh” will get away with this hate propaganda.
August 10th, 2007 at 7:55 pm
Sonya that the good ol scottish Charm lol. By the way this girl that married the Scotsman is he at all related to the Snooker player John Higgins??? if so then can you get me an autograph…… Am from Glasgow,Scotland too ;o )
This girl whoever she is, is not a Modern day Sikh sorry i’ll repharse that. What i meant to say is in my opinion a Modern Day Sikh is simply someone who follows the Official Doctrine i.e 5Ks, 10Gurus, SGGS Ji and do not accept or regard Dasam Granth and Sarbloh in the same regard as the SGGS Ji . Now in this case of this girl she is someone that does not follow Sikhi or Sanatan Dharma she is what i simply call ” British Asian ” and the there are plenty of Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs who are what i would call ” British Asian ” they have no lineage or roots.
Hate and resentment is always going to be there when 1984 is brought up its a very sensitive for Sikhs, now don’t get me wrong there are a few in my community who will come out all guns blazing. I would probably say if you were a Sikh living through the 80s and 90s without doubt in my mind you were a Khalistani supporter i was also one myself BUT things change and you begin to see a clearly picture of what happend. Like i said before 1984 has alot to do with this.
Sikhs are notorious for using Anglo-Saxon names especially in Canada i noticed but in all honestly it doesn’t bother except when you hear the parents trying to prounce there names…………god it gets on my nerves!!!
I seem to be getting the impression that there is alot of Marathas, right so far….???
Harish am really suprsied at you since you have already admittily wrote that you are of Tamil origin yet the Marathi people are killing your lot in the name of ” Marathi People ” so am just wondering why are you licking Maratha a** haven’t you get anyone from your own background to give it it LARGE??? what empire did Tamil Nadu establish is the last 200years son…………..The Million Canadian Dollar Question.
By the way Harish what Caste are you from???
August 10th, 2007 at 8:01 pm
Infact here is a question just out of Curiosity what Caste are you lot from???
August 10th, 2007 at 8:40 pm
jivan mahlee , read some history and then talk, the anti south indian and anti gujju sentiment of shiv sena is an old story, even then they didn’t do nothing physical, just verbal rheotic, plus most of the migrants to Mumbai now are from Northern states like Bihar in search of jobs (actually Sena chief Thackeray openly backs Tamizh Eelam Viduthalai Puligal or the LTTE).
hahaha what do you want Hindus to do, lick sikh ***, i think u on the wrong forum mate, u shud go to the rss loser chaddiwallah’s shaka if u wanna get off on that cuz on here we Hindus don’t believe in a*** licking.
and just deal with the fact that Marathas busted the mughals, it’s not my fault u can’t face facts and think sikhs saved us, stating hard facts don’t become a*** licking but bigging up u losers based on myths like ravi sharma did def counts as ***e licking.
next , i ain’t tamil which becomes clear if u read my posts and the million dollar question is, what exactly have you guys done for the last decade other than dal fart on the net about khalistan?
how convenient you only mention the “last 200 years” cuz u can include ranjit singh’s empire in there (which i must mention only lasted like what, 50 years?).
but the inconvenient fact for u is, every state has it’s golden era and it just so happens that under raja raja chozhan and rajendra chozhan, the chozha’s conquered srilanka and had influence throughout south east asia cuz of their navy.
and why do u want my caste, i thought egalitarian sikhs didn’t believe in caste?
August 10th, 2007 at 9:00 pm
here is Bal Thackeray talking:
“Remember how Indira Gandhi armed the LTTE, supported them in their war against the Sri Lankan government. After all, they were Tamilians fighting for their own homeland against a repressive regime. But suddenly Rajiv Gandhi came to power and overnight, without any provocation, changed India’s stand. So the LTTE found that India had not only backed out of supporting them, despite an existing understanding and agreement, but, what is worse, had decided to send its troops to massacre them in a joint operation with the Sri Lankan government. What business was it of India to intervene in this battle and support a foreign government to kill these people of Indian origin fighting for their rights?
Can you blame the LTTE for reacting to this and sending their assassins to punish Rajiv Gandhi? Every day hundreds of young Tamilian boys were being massacred by the joint command of the Indian and Sri Lankan troops. Did you expect the LTTE leaders to sit back and watch these massacres, doing nothing? So they sent their suicide squad to get him.
http://www.rediff.com/news/1998/jan/21nandy.htm ”
‘’The LTTE are our own people and there is no need to send our army to Lanka to fight them. Let Sri Lanka handle its own internal matter. India’s intervention would go against Nehru’s Panchsheel declaration of not interfering in the internal matters of another sovereign country,'’ Thackeray said. ‘’Rajiv Gandhi committed that ‘foolishness’ and had to pay with his life.'’
Vaiko gave him details of the LTTE’s rise and its cause and the Shiv Sena totally supports it, Thackeray added.
http://www.rediff.com/news/2000/may/10thack.htm ”
and this loser, who hasn’t been to Bharat in God knows how many years wants us to belive that Marathas are massacring Tamils.
August 10th, 2007 at 9:12 pm
Jivan,
my caste is White Jat descendant of of the Yeti and proponent of the superior race (ie a five fout five Khalistani with a five foot pug and a five foot kirpan who reads Mein Kampf and beleives in euginecs)
most of us HIndus can take pride in Hindu acheivments whatever regional or caste backgrounds we are from
unlike the modern day Khalistani prejudiced rascists that inhabit the internet with fascist hate propoganda
August 11th, 2007 at 12:47 am
Am A Mahlee/Jatt from the Majha belt of Punjab, what are you Harish???
Ok so i have established that Harish talks a load of ***, here is your statement i quote ” southern monkeys eh? as i said u cowards don’t say nothing to our faces, ” Now for someone to come on here and give it LARGE about the LTTE can only lead to me assuming he is a Tamil i mean no one in India likes these Terrorist i mean these guy use Taliban/Islamic Suicide bombings bloody cowards on innocents!!!! And you are giving it LARGE about the LTTE lolzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
LMFAO @ Bal Thackery ( what a great source ) are you for real you gonna use these geeza as an example of how Marathi and Tamils have come ” hindu bhai bhai ” mate incase you don’t know these geeza was heavly connected and still is with Dawood. He is more of a Godfather of Mahastra than a Swami, Bal Thackery da lagdha. LFMAO!!!! Don’t make me laff Harish you talking more **** than what they do in Timbutoo……stop kidding yourself and hiding behind a false Idenity.
Last time i was in India was Feburary 2005 stayed there for a month and i gotta tell ya from what i saw in Mumbai Tamils are treated as second class citizens. So spin out that Harish…………..
Anyway back to question at hand, What caste are you Harish???
August 11th, 2007 at 11:17 am
Harish this is your statement and i quote ” hasn’t been to Bharat in God knows how many years wants us to belive that Marathas are massacring Tamils. ”
I already stated that i went to India just over 2years ago. Attacks on Kannada people in Pune, Kholapur and other places of Maharastra, Goa and border area of Nippani by Marathis - in name of Marathi and Maharastra . But i suppose these Kannada people are lying or this is just simply Khalistani Propaganda LOL oh no wait a minute its the India Media who ofcourse are Christian Missionarys converting low-caste Hindus.
August 11th, 2007 at 11:20 am
Here is a question just out of Curiosity what Caste are you lot from???
August 11th, 2007 at 2:12 pm
hehehe no one in India likes LTTE, did you carry out a survey?
last I heard Thackeray and Vaiko were living in India and they seemed to like them …
at least they are better than your khalistani cowards, they may use suicide bombings (many of them against military targets) but they also fight directly with the sinhala army and run a defacto parallel gov’t in areas under their control, and they certainly don’t hide behind their women’s sari pallus and religious places like a certain “santji” did.
see jivan mahlee keeps on chatting s***, lol Tamils are treated second class in Mumbai, so tell us mahlee, when was the last Maratha massacre of Tamils, was it 2 days ago or a month ago?
you don’t even know what you are talking about, i think you should stick to ranting on forums like “jatt world” where all the nutty one’s among jatts in the world like you congregate and lick each others ****.
Shiv Sena initially started off as a party supported by the Maratha castes, back in the 80’s and 90’s when south indian’s and gujjus came in a lot they had an anti gujju and anti south indian plank, later on this was dropped once they found out that they could get more support on the Hindu nationalist plank.
mahlee is displays the typical thinking among today’s sikhs, lol he thinks Thackeray is with Dawood while his Shiv Sena is the main accused in the Mumbai riots for defending Hindus, please explain how dawood is friends with a man accused of giving “orders” for retaliation against Muslims?
Also please explain how a minority in Mumbai (Marathas are a minority now) is able to treat another minority as second class, last time I heard Mumbaiya Hindi is the language of Mumbai now and not Marathi.
mahlee also please do show us evidence for tamil massacres in Mumbai and enlighten us all.
i asked you a question too mahlee, i thought you guys didn’t “believe” in caste?
August 11th, 2007 at 2:44 pm
my caste is the Nikalsaini
you know from that group of Sikh Soldiers who after the Anglo Sikhs wars cut of their kesh and turbans etc and began worshipping the English general Nicholson (homicidal homsexual maniac )
i am from the area where malwa, doaba and majha meet and a black hole exists in the plains of Punjab from where an unnamed bahman controls and manipulates the destinies of the simple Punjabis
WTF has caste got to do with this discussion ?!
You must be one of the r*****s from Jattworld trying to prove Jat (read Sikh) racial superiority
August 11th, 2007 at 5:08 pm
“Attacks on Kannada people in Pune, Kholapur and other places of Maharastra, Goa and border area of Nippani by Marathis - in name of Marathi and Maharastra . But i suppose these Kannada people are lying or this is just simply Khalistani Propaganda LOL oh no wait a minute its the India Media who ofcourse are Christian Missionarys converting low-caste Hindus.”
mahlee you ain’t very good at sarcasm, so please don’t try it cuz u just end up looking even more dumb.
also please show us the news for all these attacks,
next, there seems to be some cortical atrophy in ur brain or maybe dementia has already set it in, now repeat after me “kannadingas are not tamils, kannada and tamil are 2 diff languages”, get ittttttt?
but keep on fighting the windmills like the jatt don quixote, “sikh” can be ur sancho panza, cuz u guys are really amusing (would do pretty well in a circus i must say), no one here claimed “indian media is christian missionary” except in ur hallucinations, i would recommend you go to alcoholics anonymous cuz u really r sounding like u practically live at glassy junction and freeload on the langar at the nearby gurudwara with comments like these.
August 11th, 2007 at 9:12 pm
“Am A Mahlee/Jatt from the Majha belt of Punjab”
wow, im soooo impressed…nottttttttt.
and im a vellalar, tell us, what relevance does caste hold in this conversation? or you’re gonna end up looking like even more of a dunce for asking something so stupid and unrelated.
anyway, this person expects us to believe tamils are being slaughtered all over in mumbai. i have 10 close and up to 20 distant relatives all over mumbai, none of them seem to have any problems, i think this mahlee is desperate to prove there is animosity, but there ain’t.
August 12th, 2007 at 2:21 am
I been watching these losers with udernames ’sikh’ and ‘jeevan mahlee’ spew their nonsense for a bit now and it’s getting to the point where i am beginning to wonder if they are totally braindead.
Mahlee I am Karaiyar (same caste as our Thalaivar Pirapakaran), so what you gonna do about it?
August 16th, 2007 at 4:23 am
The article is a good, however it misses out on crucial aspect of the rise of Sant Bhindawale, that he sponsored and given succour by the then Congress i government to use against the anti-C(i) Akali Dal (whose policies were heavily criticised by Bhindawale). This policy of ‘appeasement’ backfired on Indira Ghandi spectaculary. This was not the fault of religion but the result of politicians playing polictics with religion…never the twain shall meet.
Ppl on this board have critised the Sikhism, however Sikhism is a wonderful and liberating religion free from ostentatious dogma, please have respect for it.
Do those Hindu’s who are launching into ad hominem attacks on Sikhs and Sikh posters belive in Karma? How does your vitriol affect this?
Sikhs have a hard fought and illustrious history and have produced 14 VC winners —– the former British High Commissioner to India, Sir Michael Arthur had this to say about Sikh Valour: ‘I salute her and indeed all those Sikhs who have down through the years served with the British Armed Forces. Indeed the tradition is a very proud one. In the 100 years to 1945, I believe there were some 14 Victoria Crosses awarded to Sikhs. On a per capita basis, given the size of the Sikh regiments, that must be a record for the entire British armed forces. In the last two World Wars, 83,000 Sikh soldiers were killed and 100,000 wounded. Across the world Sikhs are commemorated in Commonwealth cemeteries. I want to pay tribute to their contribution in defending democracy against totalitarianism.’
The current serving members of the UK armed forces are equally complimentary about Sikh martial prowess. see link
http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=70652/postdays=0/postorder=asc/start=30.html
I am not saying that Sikhs are genetically ‘braver’ than any other racial group, it is just that our heritage and endemic self glorification in valour is a self-fulfilling prophecy which makes us ‘better’ than any other group in India. Our very mottos are glorious and militaristic (Bol so Nihal and Raj Karega Khalsa [The Khalsa will Rule …..hardly any ambiguity there!!!]).
I think it is comman-place in Sikh households to tell their progeny of their superioty against other Indian races…however could not the same be said for Hindus??
I as a Sikh, dont care what narrow-minded ppl on this forum think of us, i can only speak annecdotely but i think we are one of the most integrated and productive communities in the UK and approach the ‘model community’ paradigm.
As Vijay Dutt of the “Hindustan Times” (October 12, 2004) says:
‘The Sikhs in Britain are now enjoying most rewards of their work ethic compared to any other religious group.
Eight out of 10 Sikhs are likely to own a house, considered the basic symbol of prosperity. Their success is a tribute to the hard work of the first generation and then the ever-growing economic success and educational achievement of subsequent generations.
The figure of 82 per cent home ownership among Sikhs compares to 70 per cent (seven out of 10) homeowners among the Christian majority. Sikhs are also, it has been found, as likely as Christians to hold a university degree.
While 74 per cent Hindus own homes, 77 per cent of Jews are home owners, second only to Sikhs who are at top of the table with 82 per cent having their own homes.’
Hence wrt home owning Sikhs are ‘better’ than Jews and Hindus.
I love being a Sikh.
August 16th, 2007 at 10:08 am
“Ppl on this board have critised the Sikhism,”
Not really. All that is being criticised is Khalistani propaganda.
however Sikhism is a wonderful and liberating religion free from ostentatious dogma, please have respect for it.
Well we do have respect for what the Gurus taught but not for the added misinterpretations added first by the British and now by the Khalistanti Right wing.It seems like if anyone presents the facts against to the anti-Hindu proparganda then suddenly its seen as an attack on Sikhism but go to the hundreds of Sikh sites and see the constant attacks on Hinduism which cant even be repeated here because they’re so disgusting.Best would be to dispute the facts instead of making it falsely look like its a Hindu verses Sikh thread.
August 16th, 2007 at 10:19 am
Just to add another thing. You get Sikhs often say that they dont believe in the Caste system and Gurus were against Caste.This is good on paper but what are the facts Well the Gurus themselves married themselves into their own castes and so did their children.We can see all Caste gudwaras everywhere.So now is that an attack on Sikhism when people bring that up or is that a just a fact ? The answer is simple that it is fact so instead of some people here trying to make it look like its an attack on sikhism they should least be truthful and admit its true or dispute the points.
August 16th, 2007 at 2:31 pm
Simran Kaur Wraitch said:
“I think it is comman-place in Sikh households to tell their progeny of their superioty against other Indian races…however could not the same be said for Hindus??”
Says who, you?
I’m a company Director of a financial firm which caters mainly for the south Asian markets. It is common knowledge within the mortgage community that Sikhs have the worst credit record out of all south Asian communities. To break this down further:
Gujaratis belong to the group which is most likely to own their property outright (unemcumbered property). This is closely followed by south Indians and Hindu Punjabis.
South Asian muslims belong to a group which is most likely not to have proof of their income to support a mortgage application.
Sikhs belong to to a group which is most likely to suffer from adverse credit, such as CCJs Bankruptcy and IVA for non-payment of debt.
The average strike rate for a mortgage case to go proceed to completion is 88%. However, when it comes to the Sikh community, this reduces to 49%. This was reflected in a BBC news broadcast this time last year, however, the BBC incorrectly referred to the studied group as ‘Asian’ although the survey took place in Southall.
Therefore your above comments are incorrect!
Simran Kaur Wraitch said:
“Ppl on this board have critised the Sikhism, however Sikhism is a wonderful and liberating religion free from ostentatious dogma, please have respect for it.”
You should thank your Hindu Guardians from which all these positive traits of your religions have been ‘borrowed’ Just look into your ‘religion deeply and you will notice that it is Sanatana Dharma practiced as Sikhims. Hindus have not criticised Sikhism - Hindus are critical of khalistanis who want to take a part of the Hindu land and have a tendency to speak ill of the very people from whom they originate. Most of all Hindus dislike those khalistanis who falsely claim to be a superior race.
Simran Kaur Wraitch said:
“I am not saying that Sikhs are genetically ‘braver’ than any other racial group, it is just that our heritage and endemic self glorification in valour is a self-fulfilling prophecy which makes us ‘better’ than any other group in India”
Are you trying to imply that Sikhs are a superior race because their have a superiority complex? Sikhs are not a seperate race. Sikhs are infact a Hindu race who recently started a new religion. I have often heard rumours that Sikhs are supposed to be somehow superior to Hindus, however, I have yet to see evidence of it. Please provide proof of this superiority. For every sikh soldier you can name, Hindus will be albe to match this with a thousand brave Hindu warriors. For every sikh millionaire you can name, Hindus will be able to boast a Billionaire within our community.
Simran Kaur Wraitch said:
“…Sir Michael Arthur had this to say about Sikh Valour: ‘I salute her and indeed all those Sikhs who have down through the years served with the British Armed Forces”
It is a strange phenomenon that an opressed society is proud of their predecessors fighting for the very people who opressed them for over a century!
Simran Kaur Wraitch said:
“The current serving members of the UK armed forces are equally complimentary about Sikh martial prowess”
Are Sikhs supposed to be good at fighting a war, or are they supposed to be hard working civilians who buy their own houses? Please make up your mind!
Sikhs should further thank their Hindu Guardians for giving them the opportunity to thrive in a democratic country which is experiencing an economic boom. Had all of Punjab been sacrificed to pakistan; or had sikhs chosen to be a part of pakistan, sikhism would not exist today!
I was hoping to stay out of this debate since I have many Sikh friends (all of whom do not distinguish themselves as seperate from Hindus) and am a great admirer of the founder of Hindu Human Rights. However, these constant false claims from khalistanis leave me no choice but to respond.
However many close sikh friends I have, I will Always be unconditionally loyal to my fellow Hindus!
August 16th, 2007 at 4:49 pm
“I think it is comman-place in Sikh households to tell their progeny of their superioty against other Indian races…however could not the same be said for Hindus??”
actually i was told growing up that hindus are superior at everything, in the sciences, arts, culture, warfare, pretty much everything. history speaks for itself.
August 16th, 2007 at 6:51 pm
” I think it is comman-place in Sikh households to tell their progeny of their superioty against other Indian races…however could not the same be said for Hindus??”
In India there are countless jokes about dim witted sirdar jis and their illogical method of thought. There are more jokes about Sikhs than there are Sikhs. And they do say that in every joke there is some truth. Surely these endless jokes would not have much impetus if sikhs really were as superior beings as you claim..?
” but i think we are one of the most integrated and productive communities in the UK and approach the ‘model community’ paradigm”
There are a small number of turbaned sikhs who have not managed to be intergrated into British society - these are Sikhs who represent the whole of the Sikh community and are still Indian at heart. However, the majority has certainly intergrated alright - especially sikh women who have married into the black society, the mainstream white society, and even into islam, but I would not go as far as calling these people sikhs - they have adopted an alternative path and have distanced themselves from their community of sikhs.
” Our very mottos are glorious and militaristic (Bol so Nihal and Raj Karega Khalsa [The Khalsa will Rule …..hardly any ambiguity there!!!]).”
And then you go and become foot soldiers for the British. How glorious is that? Hindu parents are poud if their sons go on to acquire wealth, power and respect - they do not encourage their sons to give up their lives for the british army.
” Hence wrt home owning Sikhs are ‘better’ than Jews and Hindus.”
How does that make sikhism a better religion? Surely you are not measuring the nobleness or purity of your religion by the amounts of homes sikhs own, or the amount of sikhs joining the army? That just makes you more thrifty and less employable by the private sector - it does not make your religion noble.
August 16th, 2007 at 8:48 pm
My view on Khalistan; i am apathetic to the notion of Khalistan and care not for a political territory based on theocratic notions of exclusivity. As long as Inida remains a secular democracy there is no need for Khalistan. However the worry is that growing Hindu nationalism in Indian politics will put paid to this secularism (please read The Clash Within: Democracy, Religious Violence, and India’s Future by Martha C. Nussbaum —- a tome which adequately summarises the dangers of Hindu fundamentalism/extremism).
With respect Rohid, you furnish your arguments about mortgages with unreferenced anecdotes from your ‘personal’ experiences and extrapolate it, i hope you argee that this makes for a rather flimsy arguments. Whereas I referenced a fairly neutral source in quoting the Hindustan Times and UK office for audits and statistics. I think I will tend to believe the HT and OAS. Sikhs are the UK’s highest home owning religious community.
‘It is a strange phenomenon that an opressed society is proud of their predecessors fighting for the very people who opressed them for over a century!’
I am imensely pround that the brave Sikh regiments fought so bravely against facism and totalatarism, arent Hindus proud that their soldiers made that sacrafice to??
‘Are Sikhs supposed to be good at fighting a war, or are they supposed to be hard working civilians who buy their own houses? Please make up your mind!’
You start of your argument by assuming that being a good fighter and being a hard-working house holder are mutually exclusive. I would argue that they are not and these principles are the staple message that the GGS teaches Sikhs, i.e. to live a honest life of a house holder and to fight for truth and to ensure justice to the oppressed.
With respect i’ve noticed a growing schism between Sikhs and Hindus, but in my opinion the schism is driven by extremist Hindus making insensitive and inflamatory remarks towards Sikhs. Also why is there so much vitriol against Sikhs and Khalistan supporters, are you equally incensed with invectives against the Christians Baptists of Nagaland or the Maoist Naxalite insurrections. If you are to demean religious groups, the least you can do is to spread your venom around abit.
Some of this Sikh/Hindu conflict-confusion might arise form culture norms rather than religion. The majority of the Sikhs diaspora tend to be Jats. Jat culture is notorious for its hard drinking and machismo; additionally Jats tend to be taller, fairer and more ’socially outgoing’ than other Indian groups. I think that this has alot to do with the chauvinistic image portrayed of Sikh supremacy.
I tend to be subscribe to the opinion that there is far less animosity btwn Sikh and Hindu Jat Punjabis then say a Sikh Jat and a Tamil Hindu.
However what i would urge posters to do is not to stereotype Sikhs as a monolithic whole, Sikhs are a rich tapestry. For the shear scale of Sikh achievement and diversity i recomend to any poster Khuswant Singh’s (not THE Khuswant Singh but another one) new book Sikhs Unlimited. It chronicles the richness of Sikh diversity in the world, from a brave Kaur US Army specialist through to the multi-billion dollar ‘Gora’ Singh owner of Khalsa Security.
Finally my view is that with such a comparitively new religion (just over 300 yrs old) and world wide population of just under 26 million; Sikhs have punched well above their weight. The Sikhs are a success in that we have never before been wealthier, healthier, more numerous and more educated.
P.S. I dont want this to degenerate into a religious ‘arms race’ but Sikhs have their fair share of Billionaires to.
Right i’ve got a thesis to write, i wish you all well.
:-)
August 17th, 2007 at 7:27 am
I haven’t read everyone’s posts as such, and I have only glanced at a few key words, as always, for some reason there are sections of Indian people who like to poke fun at south Indians simply for their supposed appearance and culture. For the ignorant, I am of Karnataka origin with Greek and Indian/Aryan ancestry (thank you genetics)! My ancestors have migrated to the south eons back, maybe during Islamic rule, maybe way before that when Adi Shankaracharya was touring India spreading Advaita, whatever the case may be, not all south Indians are homogenous in their appearance just like the North Indians, and the culture of South Indians is not homogenous. My ancestors have adopted Kannada Language, culture and customs and I am proud of the cultural heritage of Karnataka. We have sheltered saints Like Ramanuja, Jain Monks, and given India saints like Madvacharya, father of Carnatic Music Purandara Daasa, and other musicians such as Kannaka Daasa.
Back to the main topic, for some reason Sikhs like to go on bragging that they are the sole saviours of Sanata Dharma and protected the entire subcontinent from Islamic tyranny, if that were the case, with disregard to the Hoysala Empire (Founder Nripa Kama II) and the Vijayanagar Empire (Founder HariHara Raya) I would like to thank you for your selfless services. But let’s get back to reality, I do acknowledge the sacrifice Guru Tegh Bahadur made, that is courage if anything and go knows me as a sole individual could never emulate such courage nor could anyone else in today’s age of materialism. The point I would like to make is that it was the Kashmiri Pundits who pleaded with Guruji for help against Aurangzeb, you cannot take that event out of context and assume that Hindus of the entire subcontinent are incapable of defending themselves against Muslim aggression when valiant rulers like KrishnadevaRaya gave the Sultanates a real headache, at the same time patronising the renaissance of Sanata Dharma, Kannada, Telega and Sanskrit.
It is the South Indians who are preserving the purer form of Hinduism; by and large we have remained relatively uninfluenced by Islamic culture (thanks god/Jai Narayana). The Hinduism we practice was the Hinduism practiced in the North before Islam barged its way into India, the same as practiced by the Lunar Race (Pandavas) and the Solar Race (Lord Vishnu’s avatar Sri Rama Chandra). The Sanskrit/Vedic Slokas are pronounced just as they were in the north before Islam barged its way in, but somewhere down the line, and no one is the blame for this, Hinduism in the north remained stagnant as they were busy defending their women, their culture and their pride! (Maybe that why simpler forms of worship such as Bhakti emerged/as opposed to a more ritualistic form of Hinduism) That reality and hats off to the North for keeping Muslims at bay!
In retrospect any attack on Hinduism no matter which part of India is a matter to be taken up by every Hindu, we are one though we practice many different forms of worship, speak many languages, and are of many races and ethnicities! The Sikhs have done a lot for the Hindus, but it is wrong to think Hindus were totally incapable of defending themselves, keep this in Mind, of all the indigenous cultures of the world, we are the only ones to survive a two pronged attack of monotheism, i.e. Islam and Christianity.
-Muski
P.S I would rather indentify myself more with polytheism, nature worship, pagan practice than to ravaging jealous god religions.
August 17th, 2007 at 12:43 pm
“With respect i’ve noticed a growing schism between Sikhs and Hindus, but in my opinion the schism is driven by extremist Hindus making insensitive and inflamatory remarks towards Sikhs.”
This is so hilarious. that couldn’t be any farther from the truth. have you seen photos of sikh protests in london, carrying banners like “Hinduism=Nazism”? Have you seen the venom spewed against hindus by sikhs on discussion boards like “sikh-sangat” and “jatt-world”?? you, yourself accepted that sikh families brainwash their kids into believing they are superior to hindus, thats where the problem stems from, your self-conceived notions of superiority, not hindus, hinduism, or hindu nationalism. hindus have been extremely patient and non-combative when it comes to sikhs constantly exercising their hatred of hindus.
August 17th, 2007 at 1:29 pm
Simran Kaur Wraitch said:
…”However the worry is that growing Hindu nationalism in Indian politics will put paid to this secularism”
..”a tome which adequately summarises the dangers of Hindu fundamentalism/extremism”
http://youtube.com/watch?v=gci0l_7sSig
Witness sikh extremism/fundamentalism in action. This was posted earlier on in the debate by Harish and it clearly confirms Sonya’s comments on khalistanis who spit in the same plate they eat off.
More importantly is confirms to me that these “taller, fairer, machos” that you are banging on about are nothing less than a group of cowards who hide their faces for fear of retaliation.
Simran Kaur Wraitch said:
“I will tend to believe the HT and OAS. Sikhs are the UK’s highest home owning religious community”
You demonstrate sikh superiority with examples which are no longer valid. One is written by in 2004 (and is nowhere to be found) by a newspaper which has no knowledge about the UK housing market, and has very little credibility in writing about the Housing market outside of India. I would be more inclined to read statistics from Land Registry and make a comparison about house price/demand trends in sikh populated areas. The other is even more historic (2001). Please provide a current and reliable source.
Simran Kaur Wraitch said:
“The Sikhs are a success in that we have never before been wealthier, healthier, more numerous and more educated.”
These same UK national statistics figures also states that sikhs are second from the bottom in education. I quote:
“After Muslims, Sikhs are the next most likely to have no qualifications …”
If you want to use outdated statistics , then you have to agree with these same statistics that, infact, most sikhs have no formal education.
Simran Kaur Wraitch said:
“You start of your argument by assuming that being a good fighter and being a hard-working house holder are mutually exclusive”
I haven’t heard such foolish a statment/correlation in many years! How does a tendency to fighting make you a hard working house holder?
Simran Kaur Wraitch said:
“I am imensely pround that the brave Sikh regiments fought so bravely against facism and totalatarism, arent Hindus proud that their soldiers made that sacrafice to??”
Why would an Indian be proud of serving in the very same army which occupied their country? Surely, you have been taught some history?
Simran Kaur Wraitch said:
” With respect i’ve noticed a growing schism between Sikhs and Hindus, but in my opinion the schism is driven by extremist Hindus”
I refer you to a small example of khalistani (cowardly) extremism, and provide you with the link again:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=gci0l_7sSig
Cowardly khalistanis provoke Hindus into retaliating and sikh apologists then come on to sites like these to distort facts about Hindus. I myself have helped several sikh families resolving their financial difficulties and have used my knowledge of finance and law to further their interest wherever possible. However, I am disgusted with what I witnessed from the above link and some of the posts made by khalistani dhimmis, and intend to limit my time to furthering Hindu interests only.
Simran Kaur Wraitch said:
“Right i’ve got a thesis to write, i wish you all well.”
Is this your way of letting us know that you are educated? I certainly hope that you research your thesis a little more than your last post!
August 17th, 2007 at 1:47 pm
“but in my opinion the schism is driven by extremist Hindus making insensitive and inflamatory remarks towards Sikhs.”
I agree and you know why, cuz Hindus are sick of taking sikh properganda about you saving us, a lot of brainwashed Sikhs in your community live on false history and myths, if we were having this discussion 10 years ago, i guarantee sikhs would have gotten away with a lot of insults they made against Hindus here, but not anymore, now there is a new awareness among Hindus and we are not hesitant to dish it back.
10 years ago people like ravi sharma who believes in Sikh myths were the mainstream among Hindus, now people like him are just a minority among Hindu community.
you want to know what’s insulting, it’s the constant bs about sikhs saving Hindus, outrageous claims like sikhs making 90% of sacrifices for the freedom movement by the so called “sant” and his blind followers is one example (the people who made this claim ran away when asked for hard evidence).
as for your point about sikhs in british colonial army, to Hindus that is no point of pride, if a British Hindu serves in today’s British army and achieves great things then yes it is a good thing, but to become cannon fodder for the wars of the British empire is nothing to be proud of, to many Hindus the real heroes are those who sacrificed their lives for the freedom of Bharat. It is no different from Jai Singh and many Rajput traitors serving Aurangzeb, Jai Singh even humbled Shivaji but to us he is nothing but a drohi (traitor) even if he was a good general while Shivaji will always be “Hindu Hriday Samrat” (Emperor of Hindu hearts).
As for Hindu Jat Punjabis, 99% of Jatts in Punjab are sikh, Hindu Jats dominate neighbouring Haryana and speak Haryanvi.
August 17th, 2007 at 3:25 pm
to muski:
“For the ignorant, I am of Karnataka origin with Greek and Indian/Aryan ancestry (thank you genetics)!”
greek ancestry???? what???
August 17th, 2007 at 6:51 pm
“(please read The Clash Within: Democracy, Religious Violence, and India’s Future by Martha C. Nussbaum —- a tome which adequately summarises the dangers of Hindu fundamentalism/extremism”
Seriously do you really think we’re going to take a book by a well known anti Hindu writer serious when we know which religion in the world is endangering the world.Its known fact that communists and their associates spread their hatred against Hindus in India and abroad about this so called Hindu ‘danger’
“With respect i’ve noticed a growing schism between Sikhs and Hindus, but in my opinion the schism is driven by extremist Hindus making insensitive and inflamatory remarks towards Sikhs.”
Yeh right ..Just visit all the Sikhs sites on the net to see the hatered against Hinduism and Hindus.They give all biga talk about equality for everyone else apart for Hindus .We never here any Sikh site talk about the killings of thousands of Hindus in Punjab now do you.?
“additionally Jats tend to be taller, fairer and more ’socially outgoing’ than other Indian groups”
Apart fromt that being my own description.Most Jats like other Indians come in all sizes and skin tones.I think the British done a really good job on Sikhs by making them believe they some sort of Nazi master race.Well maybe because the Brits are more white then Jats makes it as the word of God.
August 17th, 2007 at 7:15 pm
im sure lakshmi mittal - Hindu- is worth more than all the asians in the uk put together. Doesnt that say it all?
August 17th, 2007 at 8:02 pm
So many lengthy posts! The end of the story is, Sanatan Dharma is the best way of life, the world has realised times over and will realise.
All other sects/groupings- called religions, are nothing but means to achive control over people by one man in the name of God. These religions have thier life span and will die away with time.
Sanatan Dharma, the true loving and knowledgeble way of life will survive.
What is Sikhism anway? Why are we even bothered to bother about them. Let them go and do whatever they want.
August 17th, 2007 at 8:17 pm
I am a Sikh, born and brought up in Punjab. I have settled in the UK since the 90s.
I am proud of my Sikh identity, especially since Sikhi is part of Sanatana Dharma. My family has been going to the Mandir and the Gurudwara since arriving in Britain. You could say that my family has re-embraced Hindu Dharma.
I was in India during the ‘84 massacres and have witnessed something which will stay with me for life.
This gruesome period in Indian history has changed Sikh Hindu relations permanently. Prior to this Sikhs have lived peacefully alongside Hindus since the beginning of our history. I would like to remind Sikhs that this massacre was ordered by the Congress government. By taking a closer look at the cabinet of that government one would notice that it consisted of Hindus, Sikhs, Christians and Muslims. The army which received the order to storm the Golden Temple enrolled a large number of Sikhs.
Yet many Sikhs have been using Hindus as scapegoats for this and have hounded the Hindu community ever since then. We have to ackowledge the fact that the Congress government has as much in common with Hindus as it does with Sikhs. Most practicing Hindus these days are actually anti-Congress. Infact my own father’s life was saved by a Hindu family when an arrest warrant was issued for his capture.
Many Sikhs and Hindus will carry the scars of this unfortunate phase in Indian history for time to come. But we have to let go of the past and look at the future survival of India. I say this because of the alarming population growth of muslims in India which may well result in the islamisation of the whole subcontinent within our lifetime. unofficial figures state that the muslim population has reached the 150 million mark which makes India the highest muslim populated country in the world. Infact India has more muslims than the whole of the middle east put together. Whilst there is hatred between Sikhs and Hindus, muslims have dominated several states in the subcontinent and will soon take over the country via the ballot box. Although I am sad about what happened in India I do not blame Hindus for it. After all we do not blame the Christians for world war 2.
I would like to say to all these seperatist extremists to stop stirring hatred, whether they are Sikhs or Hindus. I would also like to say to people like Khalistani Singh Gurjeet Singh Jeevan Mahlee Hanji and Simran Kaur Wraitch to stop representing mainstream Sikh society. Your views do not represent the vast majority of Sikhs in India. It only represents a small community of Sikh diaspora which mentally still lives in 1984 India. DO NOT SPEAK FOR ME. Most of you have said that you do not want a seperate Khalistan and yet you carry bitter resentment on behalf of J S Bhrindanwale who wanted seperation from India. You can live with hatred in your souls but please let the rest of us unite to resolve India’s immediate problem.
August 17th, 2007 at 8:43 pm
It amuses me when individuals use the stat 99% of…. Harish I think you missed a trick; you could of made an even more emphatic point by using 99.999% of…
;-)
Anyway to your point that only 1% of Hindu Punjabis are Jat, well if that’s the case then I think that they must of all emigrated to the UK as I’ve met/know of hundreds.
‘I haven’t heard such foolish a statement/correlation in many years! How does a tendency to fighting make you a hard working house holder?’
Where have I stated the causal relationship btwn ‘fighting make (sic) you a hard working house holder’? Please read my post again which was referenced to your earlier post.
I notice that posters here take umbridge at the statements/videos of extremists and base their anti-Sikh arguments on this; isn’t it also true that I could take the statements of Hindu extremists and extrapolate this to negatively implicate all the Hindu nationalists? Again the amount of vitriol displayed in some of these posts borders on the hysterical. Most Sikhs I know aren’t obsessed with Khalistan or overt displays of religiosity, but are concerned with seeking justice for Sikhs (circa 1984) and of eradicating the many cultural anomalies within Sikhism (i.e. Castism, female infanticide, dowry, expensive Sikh weddings, ‘honour’ killings etc.). I would encourage Hindus hostile to Sikhs to explore the progressive and self-critical dialogue that is going within the SGPC; the Khalsa Panth (mainstream Sikhi) is not hung up on Khalistan. Hardly a month goes by without the SGPC announcing another reformist directive (hukamnama) wrt orthodox Sikhs. Sikh cultural organisation has transformed radically since the adoption of the Rohit Maryada and will no doubt progress even further towards equality in the future.
It should be remembered that the growth of the Khalistan movement was not due to organic agitation from Sikhs, but by the sponsorship of Sant Bhindawale by C(I) — due to ‘Hindu fears of the growing political/economic dominance of the Sikhs and the Akali Dhal party in the strategically important state of Punjab’ (The Nation’s Tortured Body: Violence, Representation, and the Formation of a Sikh “Diaspora” by Brian Keith Axel). If anything the only hope that Khalistan has is the advent of Hindu nationalism. Hindu nationalism will breed Khalistan supporters.
‘In India there are countless jokes about dim witted sirdar (sic) jis and their illogical method of thought. There are more jokes about Sikhs than there are Sikhs. And they do say that in every joke there is some truth.’
Sikh Gurus sacrificed themselves for the sake of religious pluralism, do you really think that Sikhs care about ignorant jokes or name-calling. On the rare occasions that I have got insulted by anti-Sikh remarks, I just concentrate on my Kara and remember the examples of our Gurus.
Let Hindus ridicule Sikhs and Sikhism,….in the end Karma’s a bitch.
‘…that sikh families brainwash their kids into believing they are superior to hindus, thats where the problem stems from, your self-conceived notions of superiority,’
Wouldn’t you agree that from a cultural/anthropological viewpoint that the Sikh coda, which places a high emphasis on spiritual and physical valour and community service, would inevitably have a strong sense of itself and a need to assert its independence, superiority and self-sufficiency?
‘ “After Muslims, Sikhs are the next most likely to have no qualifications …”
If you want to use outdated statistics , then you have to agree with these same statistics that, infact, most sikhs have no formal education. ‘
This is a rather bad and strange mis-reading of the OAS data, nowhere in the report can anyone infere that ‘most sikhs have no formal education’.
Read Khattab(2005) for an accurate analysis of the 2001 census wrt to ethnicity and religion (link: http://www.bristol.ac.uk/sociology/leverhulme/nk_ed_achievement.pdf). Khattab states that only 6% of 2nd generation Sikhs have no formal education cf. 4% of 2nd generation Hindus.
I accept that more needs to be done with regards to educational achievement and Sikhs; however Sikhs are on par with the UK Christian majority and a I theorise that this urbanised UK Sikh generation will be free from the feudal Punjabi Jat tendencies of their forefathers and focus more on education. It should be noted that the more urban Bhapas Sikhs, which include the Indian PM, do exceptionally well wrt to education.
I am quite confident that by the next UK census in 2011, Sikh academic attainment wrt University degrees will approximate closer to the 31% that the Chinese community currently enjoy (http://www.literacytrust.org.uk/Database/stats/EALstats.html#highest).
I really have no idea why Hindus get so vexed wrt Sikhism and the concept of Khalistan, Hinduism is a great world religion and should be broad enough to take dissenting viewpoints.
Anyway the Sikhs in the Punjab are already fighting a losing demographic battle – using a socio-economic argument the relatively affluent middle classed Sikhs of the Punjab will never out produce the Muslim and Hindus wrt progeny – already Sikhs have the second lowest fertility rate in India with 1.86 children born/ woman cf. Hindu – 2.27 and Muslim – 3.06 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_India); it is projected that the Hindu population of the Punjab will gain parity with the Sikhs by 2025.
In reality I believe that Sikhi is universal, so a political construct called Khalistan shouldn’t matter to us. The rate of Sikh emigration from the Punjab (primarily for economic reasons of soil exhaustion and falling water tables) is as great as it has ever been, with adventurous Sikhs finding roots in more exotic places like Italy’s Po Valley (the Italians are considering opening up a charge de affairs in Jalandhar specifically for the increase in Sikh immigration). So in short Hindus should not worry about Sikhism, you guys should concentrate on being good Hindus.
‘Is this your way of letting us know that you are educated? I certainly hope that you research your thesis a little more than your last post!’
Rohid I stated this as a personable statement of fact, not a statement to mis-construed by paranoia. Please refrain from making ad hominem attacks, rather debate on the issues.
P.S. Rohid I hope you haven’t sold many mortgages to the sub-prime community…Opps.
;-)
P.P.S Out of respect for Sikhi and in the interests of grammatical correctness - please can posters capitalise the ‘S’ in the proper noun Sikh/ism — its seems petty and immature not to.
Thx.
August 17th, 2007 at 8:49 pm
To Madurai Veeran
Thats true mate, I mean I dont expect people to believe me, heck I didnt believe it until recently, if you look at the history of Bharat many greek communities migrated to India before and after alexander the (so called) great so for some indians to have greek ancestry is not an alien concept! But I dont use that as a form of indentification, as far as I am concerned, I am Australian Hindu originally from Karnataka! So if some people want to keep dissing south Indians go ahead, the southies are laughing all the way to the bank in their luxury cars thanks to their hard work and high qualifications.
-Muski
August 17th, 2007 at 10:31 pm
thats pretty nutty if you ask me because you got no verifiable account of any greek ancestry, plus most greeks settled well outside the realms of any hindu kingdom, in the buddhist areas of gandhara, and the numbers that settled hardly had any genetic impact on indians as a whole. its like me claiming to have lemurian ancestry.
August 17th, 2007 at 10:58 pm
simran to this day i have yet to meet a single Hindu Jat from Punjab, a few are around but just a few.
next you talk about Hindus dissing sikhs, why don’t you talk about what people like gurjeet were saying about Hindus, they claimed that sikhs made 90% of the sacrifices in freedom movement, when asked to furnish he pulled some obscure statistics with no evidence, you expect us to let him get away with his khalistani bs?
the majority of Hindus already said sikhs have their own id, yet every sikh that comes on here repeats the same thing, haven’t u guys got nothing else to show of your dharma except “we are not Hindu”?
i ain’t worried about sikhs cuz they r irrelevant to me as long as they don’t do anti Hindu propaganda that we see a lot of people like gurjeet, sikh, mahlee indulge in.
on aug 15 sikhs had a protest against at indian high comission, fine go have your protest, no one cares about that, but why are they spreading propaganda about sikhs bringing Bharat independence on sikh sangat forum?
they even made a facebook group called “why sikhs shouldn’t celebrate indian independence”, fine don’t celebrate if you don’t want, we don’t care, but again on the same groups introduction they put up the myth of sikhs bringing bharat independence, here is the group:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=4564574057
as long as they don’t stop spreading anti Hindu myths, i won’t stop exposing those myths.
as for cultural diff’s causing tension, it’s not diff but the blatant racism and superiority complex of a nazi type among many sikhs, we see this mentality even here with the comment of mahlee about “southern monkeys”, they think they can get away with it and to a great extent they do get away with it since they are cowards who will never say it to our face, no one is preventing them from showing up at one of the Tamil run temples and saying the same thing, but they won’t cuz they are losers, till now i have met many sikhs, not one had the guts to say the same to my face, though some of the same losers prob go home and apply “fair and lovely” and then does cyber w*****g on “jatt world”.
August 18th, 2007 at 10:24 am
to Madurai Veeran: Thats fine, although I dont like the tone of your response, dont ever respond to me like that again, show some respect! I dont expect you to understand or contemplate such a thing, from the way you talk you appear to be of pseudo-intellect, I have mentioned in my first post thanks “Genetics” a field that is infallable, but anyway, I am not going to give you my personal details on a public forum just to justify and verify my claims, thats none of your business, have a good day.
-Muski
August 18th, 2007 at 12:30 pm
I’ve been observing this discussion for a while and am disgusted with some of the posts on here and wanted to add my take on this. I am a Sikh Jatti, a proud Indian Woman. My whole family is ‘culturally Sikh’ About two years ago I came out of an abusive marriage. My ex-huband is a Sikh Jat. He spent his evenings drinking heavily and blaming all of his problems on others (ie Indian government, Tony Blair, Hindus etc..) Whenever his relatives came over for a visit they would spend the evening cursing Hindus and arguing why we are ‘better’ than them. I felt really sorry for my brother in laws wife who as a Hindu had to put up with such degrading language about her Religion. To cut a long story short, I managed to get a divorce after a long battle with my ex, his parents and my family.
Since then I became more independant and established a career and rented a flat. I re-married about a 1 1/2 years ago, to a charming cheeky chappy who treats me well and is a devoted husband. But my father will not accept him because he is Hindu Gujarati. I live a few streets away from my parents and often bump into my dad but he pretends not to know me. It breaks my heart everytime he does that. He would rather I still lived in that abusive relationship with my ex husband. My mother has secretly accepted my husband as he is ‘tall & fair and looks Sikh’ I’ve recently been blessed with a baby girl who has completed my life. My mother comes to see her but refers to her as ‘Hinduani’ instead of her real name.
My husbands family also come to visit often and never speak bad about Sikhs or any other Religion or race. I’m sorry to say that I often feel ashamed of my parents who strongly believe that they are more superior than Hindus. My Sikh girlfriends also have the same mentality although many of them have dated Hindu guys in the past. I wanted to say to people like ‘Kahlistani Singh and ‘Simran Kaur Wraith’ to stop being hypocritical. We are not a superior or inferior race, we are the same race. I often hear people like you complain that Hindus are prejudice towards them but I’d like to remind you that this is not the case. It is our own community who is to blame. So please stop spreading this hatred which we have learned from out elders and are passing on to our future generations.
August 18th, 2007 at 2:34 pm
i am absolutely appalled by the attitudes and opininons of many sikhs. I am speaking as a former sikh - yes, I’ve severed ties with the sikhism of today. I consider myself 100% hindu. I married a hindu girl, had a hindu wedding and my children are brought up as hindus (they do not have Singh or Kaur in their names). I can tell everyone here that apart from a couple of organizations there is nothing spiritual left in mainstream Sikhism. The gurudwaras are political/business organizations which do nothing to emancipate the soul. The speeches made in most of them are highly inflammatory to put it mildly. The only thing they are obsessed with is external identity and separating themselves from their hindu roots. And I agree with the comments made earlier that the last thing you should is suck up to these people. If they want to be separate let them be, we are a lot better off without them. They say they do not ‘worship’ idols (neither do hindus) but then they consider a book to be a replacement for a living Guru. The Guru Granth Sahib is bowed down to, it is put to sleep at the end of the day etc. Also on the day of Baisakhi, the Nishaan Sahib(the flag of the Khalsa) is washed, clothed, bowed down to. How on earth can they consider this practice to be different to so called ‘idol worship’. I also agree that without its Vedic roots the followers of Sikhism will diminish further and further. I don’t think the monothiesm that they are teaching in the gurudwaras is at all inspiring. Maybe this is the reason why a lot of sikhs are turning elsewhere. A few years ago I was going through a very difficult time emotionally and I decided to take up meditation to help me. In my meditations I asked for help from Ganeshji, Krishna, Shankar Bhagwan, Guru Nanak and Durga Ma. I cannot even put into words the way the blessings I recieved have completely changed my life. This is the beauty of Sanatana Dharma, to be able to worship whoever or whatever gives you spiritual upliftment. I have now began to read about the Vedas, Bhagavadgita, Vivekananda, etc. I have had many havans in my home and the atmosphere created by a havan can only be described as awesome.
From my experiences I can say that hindus should NOT feel inferior because we have a history, culture and heritage which is second to none, of which we should all feel proud.
August 18th, 2007 at 2:58 pm
psuedo intellect? watever m8, at least i aint a nutter claiming to be descended from greeks. i rem there was another loser claiming to be a sakastani, r u the same 1? neway, even amongst the kalasha tribes and the pashtuns that claim greek ancestry, there is no DNA evidence that there was any genetic input from greeks, so i wonder how you’re greek….
August 18th, 2007 at 3:36 pm
Sandeep that’s touching story and I know off hand another 4-5 jat sikh girls married to Hindus and whose parents have done the same thing of keeping away.This problem doesn’t happen with other non- Jat Sikhs at all.You’re right about the insults and abuse which they throw on Hinduism.It’s even worse then what Muslims or Christians ever say.All the Sikhs sites totally denigrate Hindus and Hinduism daily.One has to go and see the anti-Hindu nonsense on youtube with homemade movies to see how far they are going.They think because Hindus haven’t fully made an issue about it is because Hindus are cowards but that’s not the case because Hindus mainly have always seen Sikhs as their own brothers who are part of the family but how far can this go now ? The rift has started to happen and many Hindus have started to wake up to this reality that their tolerance is being seen as a weakness. What these Sikhs are forgetting is that the original Khalsa was created by Hindus in reaction to the persecution of Hindus and denigration of Hinduism by Moguls and it seems now the same thing could repeat again against these continuous insults by khalistani Sikhs on Hindus. History has a very strange way of repeating itself..
August 18th, 2007 at 4:30 pm
muski, really mate, i don’t know what genetics you been checking up, but the greek contribution to indian genetics is minimal.
“I am of Karnataka origin with Greek and Indian/Aryan ancestry (thank you genetics)!”
ya rightttttttttttttt!!
the alexander invasion and the subsequent ousting of greeks by chandragupta maurya happened over 2000 years ago, even assuming that your ancestors at that time were greeks, after 2000 years of interbreeding with other indians, you are as greek as i am african!!
August 18th, 2007 at 4:57 pm
whats the big deal about Greeks anyway ?
Why did u mention that Muski? I honestly dont know why u thought to mention that…
Sandeep, it generous of you to come onto this forum and share your personal family experiences. Respect.
August 18th, 2007 at 7:14 pm
‘I can tell everyone here that apart from a couple of organizations there is nothing spiritual left in mainstream Sikhism.’
As you claim that Sikhism is bereft of spirituality, this is a completely subjective opinion but personally I find performing the Jaapji and reciting the Mool Mantra the most spiritually fulfilling aspect of my day – I doubt that this euphoric sense could be replicated by any other tradition. Again IMHO the Harminder Sahib and the sarover at Taran Taran are the most spiritually uplifting places on earth. Also research the many testimonies of convert ‘gora’ Sikhs - and you’ll find the common trait of all their conversions was the deep sense of spiritual fulfillment that they get from Sikhi.
You assert that Sikhism is somehow in decline, where is your evidence for this? Again anecdotally I have never seen more Sikhs, men and women, wear the Dastaar and taking armit (when I was growing up [early 80s] I hardly saw any women wear the Dastaar, now in Leicester at least they are common-place). At my university campus Sikhs take pride in wearing the articles of faith and other ‘Khanda’ branded paraphernalia; the Sikh martial art of Gatka is enjoying a worldwide resurgence. Up and down the UK, new Gurdwaras are being built or extended; every Sunday the Gurdwaras are full with Sikh worshippers. These aren’t the signs of a religion in decline or w/o a deep sense of purpose or spirituality, but rather evidence of a thriving faith.
Research by Johnson and Barrett (2004. Todd M. Quantifying alternate futures of religion and religions. Published by Futures Vol. 36 (2004) 947–96) put the increase of Worldwide Sikhs (converts and births) at 392, 633 Sikhs added per year. Again hardly evidence of a religion in decline. Please also note that after 1947 partition, Sikhs only numbered less than 5 million; and in 1984 the Sikh population was estimated at 14 million – in short we have never been that numerous in the first place (this population factor is another reason why the massacre of over 3, 000 Sikhs in 1984 and the subsequent ‘disappearance’/imprisonment w/o trail of 54, 000 young Sikh men hit us so hard).
I have however, come across many ‘Sikh’ atheists (oxymoronic I know) who are proud of their Sikh heritage and tradition, but have no belief in Waheguru and do not frequent the Gurdwara. Perhaps it is these people that posters are referring to.
As for those Sikhs who have left mainstream Sikhi, I am happy that you have found your own path to God. Sandeep congrats on having the courage to leave to your abusive relationship and having found a ‘charming cheeky chappy’.
Again, yes rightly or wrongly many Jat Sikhs do have a sense of superiority wrt Hindus and even other Sikh castes – this is w/o doubt; however I would argue that, despite 1984, there is no malice in this, rather I would assert the Sikh attitude is one of paternalistic concern for the Hindus (this sounds amazingly patronizing and no doubt many of you will take issue with it, but in my experience its true). I admit this is wrong and this notion will undoubtedly change in the future (especially as Hindus will soon outnumber Sikhs in the UK - 2 to 1), but for Hindus who struggle with Jat Sikh chauvinism I’ll direct you to a quote from a heroine of mine, Eleanor Roosevelt:
‘No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.’
P.S. Shakti, interesting piece of historical revisionism but the Khalsa was created by a Sikh, Guru Gobind Singh Ji; and Sikhism explicitly rejects the authority of the Vedas, which if I am not to much mistaken is what Hinduism is based on.
P.P.S. Sandeep, I don’t and never have purported to speak for all Sikhs, I, just like you can only speak for myself.
Peace Out.
August 18th, 2007 at 8:28 pm
Jeevan, actually I do dialogue with the ex-Sikhs but being narrow minded fundo anti-Hindu monotheists like you they dont like discussing matters as dogmatic religion is against that. And plenty are Jats, mostly female. I guess you dont mind as all the Jat females are runnign off with BMW’s, especially the M bit.
August 18th, 2007 at 8:47 pm
I saw some sikhs posting anti-South India comments, so I wanted to respond to that, but I agree it is out of context, anyway Selvanayagan Veerasingham what you say could be true, but whether what I claim is true or false, its interesting to note such cultural similarities between Pagan Greek Religion and ours. Buts that’s a topic for another discussion, maybe you could email me and we can talk about this further. In regards to the Sikh position, I have argued with them for many years on the internet. It is useless, and from what I have seen it seems like it is always the Hindus who are offering their hand in friendship to the sikhs, only to get that very hand spat upon.
A word of advice to this Sikhs, you think that its hip and trendy to follow a monothiestic path, but in the end, like any religion that begins to preach exclusive worhip to one begins to lose popularity, cull creativity and breed hostility. If you notice, all polytheist paths in the world were great exemplifications of cultural creativity! To be honest, the different forms to worship, the choice to worship different gods, the complete and absolute freedom that is provided to me by my culture is well and truly a gift. Now if you’ll excuse me, I am going to worship some snakes and stones, I dont need to justify myself to any Godamn monotheists.
-Muski
August 18th, 2007 at 8:50 pm
“With respect Rohid, you furnish your arguments about mortgages with unreferenced anecdotes from your ‘personal’ experiences and extrapolate it, i hope you argee that this makes for a rather flimsy arguments”
Perhaps you can learn from your comments to Rohid yourself, before making such assumptions (based on wishful thinking) as:
” I am quite confident that by the next UK census in 2011, Sikh academic attainment wrt University degrees will approximate closer to the 31% that the Chinese community currently enjoy”
I have looked at the website provided by the UK office for audits and statistics. Here’s a quote from there:
“After Muslims, Sikhs are the next most likely to have no qualifications (20 per cent). Seventeen per cent of Buddhists and a similar proportion of Christians (15 per cent), Hindus (15 per cent) and people with no religion (14 per cent) had no qualifications.”
This indicates that 1 in 5 sikhs have no qualification. Therefore, your statement about sikhs being more educated than before, merely serves the purpose of showing that more than 1 in 5 sikhs used have no qualifications. Despite this recent improvement, Hindus are still outperforming Sikhs.
According to the same tables, Sikhs are more likely to suffer from long term illness than their Hindu counterparts. Therefore, you below comments merely serve the purpose of showing that sikhs are healthier today than Sikhs used to be - However, Hindus are still healthier than sikhs:
“Sikhs have punched well above their weight. The Sikhs are a success in that we have never before been wealthier, healthier, more numerous and more educated.”
I have also glanced at the link you posted about Nabil Khattab’s findings. Again, these indicate that sikhs are performing better than their elders did. This merely proves that sikhs have punched above the weight of their parents - However, Sikhs still lag behind Hindus and the Chinese.
” I notice that posters here take umbridge at the statements/videos of extremists and base their anti-Sikh arguments on this; isn’t it also true that I could take the statements of Hindu extremists and extrapolate this to negatively implicate all the Hindu nationalists?”
Perhaps you can learn from your lessons yourself, before making such statements as the one below:
“please read The Clash Within: Democracy, Religious Violence, and India’s Future by Martha C. Nussbaum —- a tome which adequately summarises the dangers of Hindu fundamentalism/extremism”
You have carefully chosen writing which brands Hindus as extremists, yet you complain when Hindus choose a video depicting sikh fundamentalists.
” Out of respect for Sikhi and in the interests of grammatical correctness - please can posters capitalise the ‘S’ in the proper noun Sikh/ism — its seems petty and immature not to.
Thx.”
Many of us (myself included) make spelling and grammatical errors, however, we don’t go out of the way to point at others’ mistakes - especially when our own grammar and spelling is poor. Perhaps you can learn a lesson from your above statement yourself and check the amount of grammatical errors and mispellings you are guilty of before pointing the finger at others.
“So in short Hindus should not worry about Sikhism, you guys should concentrate on being good Hindus.”
Perhaps you should take another lesson from this yourself. Try to be a good Sikh instead of digging around for tables and other statistics to portray sikh supremacy over other Indian ethnic groups.
August 18th, 2007 at 8:54 pm
Sandeep you are a proud woman and I salute you. I actually married another Jat Sikh from India, and it has lasted 8 years. The joshi (yes Sikhs in India use astrology) predicted it would be happy marriage. However I no longer wear kara or khanda as these have become fashion statements. I sympathise 100% with Sanatani as I feel stepping into a gurudwara might as well be a mosque or church. Even at funerals Sikh guys go there to check girls out, I mean what a sick joke. Know of Sikh girl who makes regular habit of going to gurudwara yet has had the United Nations up her since she left home at 18 to go to uni and got her knickers off within 5 minutes and now suffers from having been on the contraceptive pill for just as long. Meaningless ritual and habit. No spirituality. Sandeep you should be respected for getting rid of that useless drunk, but it brings a strange fact that Sikh girls can marry alcoholic Sikhs, but not clean living Hindus. This is identerianism. Kara, khanda, even kesh has become a tribal identity marker with no substance to it. Thats why I say Sikhs who do not want to be Hindus, please let them go. Hindu Dharma is eternal and will never die! That is why by being Hindu I full own my Sikh background and do not follow some anti-Hindu mishmash of Islamic fundamentalism, Protestant Christianity, Punjabi ethnic Nazism and Marxism. If you want to know the Sikh future look at your own women who after getting treated for venereal disease cnanot get a husband as nobody believe they did not drink, smoke or prove their “diversity” by being the Friday night campus mattress. Better still look at the life of Sadhu Sundar Singh to see where Sikhism (as in Sikh separatism with its monotheistic rubbish) is going.
August 18th, 2007 at 9:07 pm
the bottom line is nothing really to do with religious differences with the Hindus
its just that most Sikhs think that they are ‘harder’ than Hindus
all the rest of the arguement is just crap
therefore any Hindu who has self respect or talks about his hisotry and culture becomes be default ‘anti Sikh’
to justify this bullcrap feeling they are preapred to lie and doctor history and events to a mentally disturbed state which today animates so many young sikhs today
look at the sikhsangat.com site today and they are again claiming that they made teh majority of sacrfices for INdias freedom - totally flying in the face of all rational history and thought and totaly negating the legions of sikhs who marched killed and murdered in the name of their white masters
all I can say is what a bunch of jokers
August 18th, 2007 at 10:18 pm
Simran Kaur Wraitch, stop your Sikh supremacy propaganda!
Even the tolerant Hindu community will react badly to this stirring and Religious hatred you are spewing on to this website!
How do you think Sikhs would feel if a Hindu came on to a Sikh discussion forum and started bombarding it with Hindu supremacist statistics?
Get a life!
August 19th, 2007 at 6:37 am
Jat Nihang Mahadev
Correct me if I am wrong mate, but it seems to be a trend in which followers of Monotheism, doesnt matter which path, breeds alot of frustration and angst, I strongly feel that restrictions in spirituality always lead to anti-Social tendancies. I’ll give you an example, I was showing a turban to my christian friend and he asked if he could try it on (it was ready made) and his sister warned him not to as it was against the bible, its little things like this that lead to big things later on! its worse for children who study at catholic schools, they end up promiscuous and drug addicts. Its really sad, there needs to be freedom in every aspect of life from spirituality to what clothes you wear.
-Muski
August 19th, 2007 at 9:55 am
Does Sikhism (as in anti-Hindu ideology) give greater freedom to women? Well judging by Sunny Leone becoming porn star of the year that’s one wya of looking at it. Now one may counter that there must be loads more Hindu women in that industry (I dont have the stats), as well as involved in slutty Bollywood desi culture, converting to monotheistic dogma, etc. Yes but then all this talk about Sikhs contributing out of proportion to India’s freedom sacrifices (which counts the victims of General Dyer at Jallianwala Bagh just to inflate the figures) must also take into account the Sikhs who now contribute out of all proportion to being porn stars (film and magazine), promiscuous sluts (espcially with the “oppressed” descendants of former African slaves , alcoholics, drug addicts, smoking addicts (at a time when people realise that having one lung missing is not conducive to a long life)layabout loafer criminal underclass, wife batterers, converts to radical Islam, Marxism and evengelical Christianityand just general scum. This is because all Sikhism teaches is gurudwara on Sunday (if one can even be assed doing that) and other times lavish overpriced weddings with bacardi flowing and cocaine in the toilets, and a degenerate mlecchic adharmic lifestyle. How many famous Sikhs make a point of marrying out? Daljit Dhaliwal, Nirpal Dhaliwal, Navdip Dhaliwal. Now even Sikh parents pay for their daughters to get nikah at the nearest mosque. Like I say if Sikhs want to say they are not Hindus fine. The way things are going they won’t be anything and I look forward to that day. However Sikh ideas such as in Gurbani like with other Bhakti mystical philosophy is part of Sanatana Dharma and so will never die. Sikhism believeing in a monotheistic jealous cparicious deity, is doomed form the time Macauliffe invented it with the Singh Sabha movement.
August 19th, 2007 at 10:45 am
Muski, u are absolutely right on that, and also that Christian fundo should perhaps ask what the Levites were wearing on their heads when they carried the Ark of the Covenant if one believes the Old testemant. Catholic school girls are so sexually repressed its a one way line to the Magdelane Sisters. There was one case where sex education was so bad the poor kid did not knwo whe was pregnant until it was time to give birth in the classroom.
August 19th, 2007 at 10:49 am
“P.P.S. Sandeep, I don’t and never have purported to speak for all Sikhs, I, just like you can only speak for myself.”
That’s exactly what you have done throughout your posts on here. You keep throwing these numbers about other Sikhs who are more educated, taller and fairer than Hindus. We all know that this is not true and I urge you to speak for yourself only when making such false claims. You have a lot of hate and resentment in your mind and it shows throughout your posts. Look at all your posts and imagine that these foul words were directed at you and you will see the extent of your vulgarity. By trying to stir hatred on this forum, you will achieve nothing more than to put decent, hard working Sikhs to shame!
It is you who needs to peace out!
August 19th, 2007 at 12:57 pm
Simran. let’s look at your points. You say performing Japji and Mool Mantra are uplifting. I know this girl who also finds solace in the gurdwara, but also in a pack of fags a night and the freedom to lay her kachi off from being on the pill. There is no contradiction in wearing nice khanda necklace over low cut top, and kara, and going on about her (non Sikh) ex boyfriends. Empty rituals, bereft of all spirituality, just like Singh Sabha Maculiffe Sikhism.
Gatka is enjoying resurgence because the Bhagwati (Mata Durga) worshipping Sikhs claled Nihangs are coming back on the scene, reviving the suppressed vedic roots of Sikhs. If gurudwaras are full of Sikhs, ist guys chekcing out skirt, for the free food, or sense of communtiy (and self-importance) they miss. It has less to do with actual belief and nothing at all to do with spirituality. How many of these “devout” Sikhs suffer from hangovers and some unknown slapper’s knickers in the bed from the night before or vaginal rubber burns (or int he case of that girl on the pill not even that, rather karmic that nobody wants to marry her like so many others, because when it comes down to it Sikh guys prefer virgins and not the sluts they would frequent with on the Bhangra dancefloor and don’t even bother with using a condom) while sitting all holy, heads covered up on a Sunday morning. A scene of complete fakeness against the very values which the “religion” claims to live up to, a bit like Sikh separatsim itself really.
Guru Gobind Singh did not reject Vedas or Hindu culture. In fact he went to liberate Ayodhya so that Ram Janmabhoomi could be built. In Vichitra Natak he says he will stops cows from being slaughtered and will spread Hindu Dharma.
Also about 1984. My in-laws were nearly massacred in Delhi. RSS and BJP protected Sikhs from getting massacred by mobs led by Congress, the same Marxist Congress that had built up Bhindranwale in the first place.
August 19th, 2007 at 3:21 pm
‘Sikhism believeing in a monotheistic jealous cparicious (sic) deity, is doomed form the time Macauliffe invented it with the Singh Sabha movement.’
Sikhs do not believe in a jealous and capricious G-d, especially not it the Judeo-Christian sense rather Waheguru is genderless, eternal and without any teleological purpose. The essence of Waheguru is just to be; thus mankind cannot hope to scrutinise the will or design of Waheguru because there is none. Sikhs develop a loving relationship union with Waheguru by performing Simran – the recitation of Sat Nam. This is about as complicated/simple as Sikh metaphysics gets.
This is the essence of Sikhism. There is no concept of a G-d who hates or is vengeful. Sikhism is monotheistic but not in the Abhramic tradition; rather Sikhs see God in everything so one could argue that Sikhi is pantheistic. In short Sikhi has a lot in common with the philosophy of Spinoza and his idea of neutral monism. If any of you are interested in knowing more about Sikh metaphysic w/o the baggage of organised religion, I humbly suggest you read Spinoza – which is as close an approximation, as I’ve ever been able to find.
I have a pet theory that this is one of the contributory reasons why many Sikhs find it easy to became atheists or secular Humanists – the leap in ideology is not that great.
‘Does Sikhism (as in anti-Hindu ideology)’
Why do you state that Sikhi is an anti-Hindu ideology? What is there in Sikh teaching which you class as anti-Hindu? Sikhi rejects the exclusive authority of the Vedas, but so does the majority of humanity, does that make them anti-Hindu?
For a more balance view of Sikhi I would urge poster to view the following youtube videos:
Sikhs performing seva and having a good time:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=N4Z6KSsyTKY
A beautiful and sincere kirtan :
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YJ9qW5fCqwg
A heart-rending eulogy to three young Gursikhs who died in an accident:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=rIU6tWKT4Cs
This is a more accurate portrayal of mainstream Sikhi.
The Sikhs who marry out, who drink, etc, if they say they are Sikh and accept the GGS then they are all Sikh, no other Sikh can tell another that they are not Sikh; however you might not be a Sikh who adheres to the Rohit Maryada and you can be ex-communicated from the SGPC Khalsa Panth.
All these individuals you mention from the ‘slut’ to the ‘addict’ are all Sikh in the eyes of GGS – they are finding there own path to Waheguru, mainstream Sikhi merely offers the ‘easiest’ way to this self-realisation. All these Sikhs are my brothers and sisters and apart from the unrepentant criminal I would welcome them all.
Suki Bhachu I admire your liberal use of the angry and indignant exclamation mark ‘!’, but I assure you I am not here to promote Sikh supremacy but to counter some of the anti-Sikh diatribe in evidence here and to explain Jat-Sikh cultural anomalies.
‘You have carefully chosen writing which brands Hindus as extremists, yet you complain when Hindus choose a video depicting sikh (sic) fundamentalists.’
On what basis do you claim that Martha C. Nussbaum (the acclaimed feminist and philosopher) is an ‘extremist’? Can you point to a specific viewpoint she has which would point to her extreme ideals? The renowned Hindu Nobel Prize winning economist (and another Hero of mine) Amartya Sen has no less endorsed Nussbaum’s latest book; do you then by association call Sen an extremist?
Sonya, do you not think that Hindu extremism poses a grave threat to ‘secular’ India?
‘Many of us (myself included) make spelling and grammatical errors, however, we don’t go out of the way to point at others’ mistakes - especially when our own grammar and spelling is poor.’
Sonya I’ll happily admit my spelling is poor, but can you point to an instance where I have failed to capitalise the ‘H’ in the proper noun Hindu/ism; all I am asking for is reciprocal respect – is that too much to ask (a simple depression of the [SHIFT] key)?
‘This indicates that 1 in 5 sikhs (sic) have no qualification. Therefore, your statement about sikhs (sic) being more educated than before, merely serves the purpose of showing that more than 1 in 5 sikhs (sic) used have no qualifications. Despite this recent improvement, Hindus are still outperforming Sikhs.’
I’ll happily concede that Hindus in 2001 outperformed Sikhs wrt education attainment and admit (as per earlier post) that more needs to be done wrt Sikhs and educational attainment but note as Khattab(2005) table 4 shows that only 41% of 1st generation Sikhs immigrants to the UK (I suspect mainly feudal Jat farmers) had any educational qualifications; cf. 60% of 1st generation Hindu immigrants to the UK (19% difference).
Thus in the first instance Hindu immigrants to the UK were more educated; however by the 2nd generation this difference all but disappears Khattab implies 94% of Sikhs had educational qualifications; cf. 96% of 2nd generation Hindu immigrants (2% difference).
Thus Sonya you a right when you assert that 1 in 5 Sikhs have no educational qualification, but this refers to 1st and 2nd generations Sikhs combined. When examining 2nd Hindu and Sikhs (which would be a more accurate comparison) the difference is only 2%.
There is nothing ‘wishful thinking’ is my assertion that ‘I am quite confident that by the next UK census in 2011, Sikh academic attainment wrt University degrees will approximate closer to the 31% that the Chinese community currently enjoy’; after all does it not follow that an educated, urbanized parent(s) will more likely produce qualification-attaining children?
However in the interests of fairness Khattab does state his study and the OAS analysis never accounted for ‘controlling for class background’, which has been shown to play a factor in educational attainment, thus as Khattab puts it he was unable to ‘conclude whether the ethno-religious background is responsible for the inequality in education’.
However, please note that I never brought up the subject of educational attainment/religion correlation in the first place.
I will also concede that Sikhs are unhealthier than their Hindu counterparts, but this I believe is due to the Jat Sikh predilection for alcohol consumption (the rates of liver sclerosis in Sikh men is shocking) and also the generic South Asian tendency to develop diabetes and high blood pressure. Many programs have been developed by Sikhi to counter these problems, just look inside our Gurdwaras.
P.S. muski27, can you dance to Zorba the Greek?
;-)
August 19th, 2007 at 3:44 pm
Simran Kair Wraitch said:
” This is a rather bad and strange mis-reading of the OAS data, nowhere in the report can anyone infere that ‘most sikhs have no formal education”
You would say that, wouldn’t you? :
“Jews, Buddhists and Hindus were more likely than other groups to hold a degree. About four in ten Jews (44 per cent) and three in ten Buddhists (30 per cent) and Hindus (29 per cent) held a degree compared with 22 per cent of people with no religion, 20 per cent of Sikhs and 16 per cent of Christians”
The report also indicates that 1 in 5 sikhs have no qualifications at all.
According to the above data, only 20% of sikhs have formal qualification. Therefore, most sikhs (80%) do not have a formal education. This is contrary to your earlier bragging that:
“Sikhs have punched well above their weight. The Sikhs are a success in that we have never before been wealthier, healthier, more numerous and more educated.”
Healthier and wealthier than whom…their own predecessors? Muslims?
Simran kaur Wraitch said:
“The rate of Sikh emigration from the Punjab (primarily for economic reasons of soil exhaustion and falling water tables) is as great as it has ever been, with adventurous Sikhs finding roots in more exotic places like Italy’s Po Valley (the Italians are considering opening up a charge de affairs in Jalandhar specifically for the increase in Sikh immigration”
Good riddance! Take your Catholic sister Sonia Ghandi with you
Simran kaur Wraitch said on 16/08/07:
” With respect Rohid, you furnish your arguments about mortgages with unreferenced anecdotes from your ‘personal’ experiences and extrapolate it, i hope you argee that this makes for a rather flimsy arguments.”
Simran kaur Wraitch said on 17/08/07:
” P.S. Rohid I hope you haven’t sold many mortgages to the sub-prime community…Opps.”
You will have to make up your mind. At first you complain that I use ‘personal’ experience for this debate and then you question me about my own personal mortgage client portfolio! Here’s your answer anyway:
Sub-prime mortgages are designed to give a second chance to adverse credit clients (with CCJs, IVAs and dishcarged bankruptcies) to get on to the housing ladder. These are especially useful since High Street Lenders have turned their back on adverse credit borrowers. It represents about 10% of my mortgage portfolio, which is about average for the UK. However, due to recent developments in the market, many doors have shut to this group of borrowers and I am increasingly having to turn them away. As I said in my first post, most of my sikh clients fall into this catergory.
Simran kaur Wraitch said:
” …but for Hindus who struggle with Jat Sikh chauvinism I’ll direct you to a quote from a heroine of mine, Eleanor Roosevelt:
‘No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.’
Despite your numerous lame attempts to convince us of your sikh superiority nonsense with all those petty statistics, there is no Hindu that I know of who feels that they are somehow inferior to sikhs. I’ll direct you to my hero, Carl Jung:
” There is no such thing as a superiority complex, only inferiority complex! Superiority complex is false, and is the direct manisfestation of a deeply hidden complex of inferiority, of a certain fear that He/She will not continue to be superior as he/she percieves now.
The above explains in a nut-shell the impression Hindus have of Sikh Jats. The above will also explain your incessant need to come on to a Hindu forum to persuade us of sikh superiority with your petty data.
August 19th, 2007 at 7:47 pm
‘The report also indicates that 1 in 5 sikhs (sic) have no qualifications at
all.
According to the above data, only 20% of sikhs (sic) have formal qualification. Therefore, most sikhs (sic) (80%) do not have a formal education. This is contrary to your earlier bragging….’
Rohit, with respect I’d ask you to re-examine what you have written…. notice any discrepancy?
If 1 in 5 Sikhs have no qualifications, then how does that translate into your assertion that ‘20% of sikhs (sic) have formal qualification’; surely if 1 in 5 Sikhs have no qualifications then 80% of Sikhs do have formal educational qualifications.
For a break down of these OAS figures wrt Khattab(2005) and 2nd generation Sikhs please read my earlier post.
Rohit you must be a deeply interesting chap, a mortgage broker whose hero is Carl Jung. Do you engage in Jungian analysis with your clients perchance (it would be a novel combination)? Do you have a view on the Jung/Freud schism? Was Jung right to dissociate himself so spectacularly from his surrogate father figure, Freud (is this a apt metaphor for the Sikh/Hindu dynamic)?
‘Sikhs who are more educated, taller and fairer than Hindus. We all know that this is not true and I urge you to speak for yourself only when making such false claims.’
Sandeep where have stated that ‘Sikhs who are more educated, taller and fairer than Hindus’; Rohit mentioned the issue of education; I earlier stated that ‘Jats tend to be taller, fairer and more ’socially outgoing’ than other Indian groups’ as an ontological explanation for the ‘chauvinistic image portrayed of Sikh supremacy’.
Sandeep please re-read my posts I have never stated that ‘Sikhs who are more educated, taller and fairer than Hindus’.
Sandeep, as to your accusations of falseness; please can you cite an example where I have been ‘false’, I will be more than happy to apologise if I have been incorrect in anyway. As to my posts being ‘vulgar’ I would ask you to compare my posts with previous anti-Sikh posts on this board. These are full of vile pyrrhic invectives against Sikhs, if you want instances of vulgarity I suggest you look there.
Most things I write I do so with sincerity, not with an ulterior motive of having ‘hate’ in my mind/heart. I tell you this with up-most honesty I do not hate Hindus or Hinduism; I do however love Sikhi.
Phew i cream crackered, and Liverpool have only drawn!
:-(
August 19th, 2007 at 7:49 pm
1. I’ll direct you to a quote from a heroine of mine, Eleanor Roosevelt:
‘No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.’
“P.S. Shakti, interesting piece of historical revisionism but the Khalsa was created by a Sikh, Guru Gobind Singh Ji; and Sikhism explicitly rejects the authority of the Vedas, which if I am not to much mistaken is what Hinduism is based on.”
Of course you definitely would know because a thief always accuses everyone else as thief but then I could be totally wrong and the Sikhs did suddenly land on Punjab in UFO hundreds of years ago to bring in a total ‘original’ religion totally unpolluted by the ‘dreaded’ Hinduism. Anyway Jokes aside but If Sikhs want to be taken serious by us Hindus then you can start with taking out all Hindu concepts and terminology out of your new original religion including using Punjabi as a language as that is also Hindu and then maybe we’ll take you all serious even though your brand of Sikhism is one of many other paths within Sikhism. So instead of doing your Mool Mantra oh even that’s Hindu so I will leave that out for now.
“but for Hindus who struggle with Jat Sikh chauvinism I’ll direct you to a quote from a heroine of mine, Eleanor Roosevelt:
‘No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.’
I personally haven’t come across a Hindu who has problem with JatSikh Chauvinism as for majority of Hindus the Sikhs are totally insignificant as they’re just a small tiny community but when they start insulting Hinduism and blaming Hindus on made up myths and lies then they sooner or later they should expect a reaction. If anyone has a complex then its clearly the Jat Sikhs themselves that have to keep on shouting out they are hard or they are fair or tall.Just look at your own posts to get my point.
Now maybe you can go back to all the Sikh Jats that run most Sikh sites abusing Hindus and Hinduism night and day to show what real freedom of expression is like you’re being allowed here on a Hindu site to express something a Hindu can never be allowed to do on a Sikh site but then maybe neo-Sikhism is a form of monotheism which then can’t tolerate any pluralism or freedom of thought just like Hindu Dharma does.
August 19th, 2007 at 8:36 pm
Simran, you deny that the deity is in any Judeo-Christian sense but then use G-d missing out the “o”. How orthodox Jewish of you.
This loving relationship with Waheguru. How evangelically Christian in how you said it.
Seeing god in everything is so Bhakti, devotionalist, because divine and demonic is in everyone. But you obviously want to link with anything but Hindu Dharma, so you use Spinoza. Strange when much of wetsern humanist and post-modenrist thought tallies so much with Vedant.
Sikhs find it easier to become atheists or secualr humanists for the same reason they find it easy to become the easiest prey for sexual predators during freshers week. Sikh culture is self-alienated. That is why it is anti-Hindu. The early Christian church had to be anti-Jewish to differentaite itself, and is inherently anti-Semitic. The same reason neo-Sikhism (Singh Sabha, Macauliffe stuff) is anti-Hindu is that it has to eb to exist. Sikhism defines itself by its opposition to anything Hindu, but apparently not Spinoza. Fine well then stop using Hindu terms like Dharma and take out from Gurbani words liek Rama, Krishna, etc. See how many referneces Gurbani has to Allah and Muhammad. if Sikhs reject the authority of the Vedas then they will have to reject all the Sikh gurus who themselves followed Vedas. Gobind Singh sent gyanis to Kashi to learn Sanskrit. Any guesses how many were sent to Mecca? Ranjit Singh’s army galloped across what is now Pakistan carrying not the khanda but flags with the goddess Durga. The Sikh golden age was as Hindu as it gets.
The Sikhs who drink loads, and have the a different community of the United Nations stuffed between their legs on a Staurday night, are to you still Sikhs? Ok, fine, I dont know how you can help them. Let’s hope that monotheistic deity can help when that belief is the cause in the first place.
Sikhs put across that myth of Hindu boa constrictor is going to swallow them. Well as Jat Sikh who follows Hindu Dharma, I can tell you that I am that serpent. All Macauliffe Singh Sabha and Khalistan Sikh separatists are stuck in Glassy Junction. Its just like Shaun of the Dead except this time because Sikhism Macauliffe style causes zombification (helped by bicardi, whisky, etc), this time the zombies are in the pub with the Saffron Army outside. One bite from the Hindus will give the Sikh zombies enlightenment. The rest can remain in Glassy Junction with the degenerate Bollywood Bhangra culture that makes Sikh girls the easiest victims for white and black teenagers to go through rites of sexual passage (a whole new concept of A Passage to India).
Simran you live in a nice ivory tower but look at the real world. My sister (born in India, came to Uk at age 6, 13 and half years older) got married in a Catholic church and needed permisison from the Pope as she was non-catholic. All my cousins are degenerate in various ways. I used to back Sikh separatism when I was younger. But reowning my Hindu roots makes my mind at ease and explains why this whole fmaily situation fell to pieces. Now if I had 10 girls on the go at once, lived with a woman (or man) without getting married, smoked, drank, used prostitutes, it would be fine. Why, because it does not affect Sikh separatist identity. But being Hindu, despite living a very disciplined strict life, is too much to accept, simply because it effectively counters Sikh separatism. A jat Sikh saying he’s Hindu is too much to stomach.
Har Har Mahadeva
August 20th, 2007 at 12:19 am
Kudos Jat! I glad you noticed about the Hebrew G-d syntax (I was making a subtle point delineating Abhramic G-d and the Sikhi idea of God….I am v. happy you noticed).
:-)
August 20th, 2007 at 1:09 pm
So Simran, on that subject can you appreciate that with its belief in anti-Hindu conspiracy theory, modern Sikhism has its own version of the anti-Semitic Protocols of the Elders of Zion?
August 20th, 2007 at 3:41 pm
Simran, you say that Spinoza’s philosophy is as close to sikh philosophy as you could find. Well that’s strange because sikh historians like Khushwant Singh say that Guru Nanak’s bani is a repeat of the philosophy of the Upanishads. The Upanishads were written in Sanskrit and Guru Nanak simplified them in a Punjabi dialect. How can a Jat-Sikh have so much pride and arrogance when he/she knows that none of the Gurus were Jat. So in fact a Singh Sabhia/Macauliffe following Jat Sikh has nothing in common with the Gurus. As far as the attendances of the gurudwaras are concerned, most people come for the langar and social aspects. Any place which allows inflammatory speeches,singing of songs by dhadis encouraging hatred of other communities has no spirituality in it at all. New gurudwaras are being built because they are seen as business ventures and not as centres for the emancipation of the soul.
August 20th, 2007 at 4:06 pm
Simran, you say that everyone are wearing their dastaars with pride. Well how is it that 9 out of 10 sikh girls wouldn’t dream of marrying a man who wears a dastaar, they all want to marry clean shaven men.
August 20th, 2007 at 5:54 pm
True Santani, the funny thing is that even keshdhari means nothing anymore. I used to have kesh and cut it at 18 for health reasons (skin infection, eczema) almost disowned for doign so. but these silly identity markers are more important than behaviour. RDB are average sounding band, but being keshdhari (albeit with trimemd beards) means nothing when it comes to exploiting groupies (in any case it takes 2 to tango, nobody is forcing them to get legs open wide). Keepign kesh is difficult and should mean something. How does Simran explain the amount of keshdhari who can be seen outside on smoke breaks! Its a joke!
As for gurudwara being more for the social aspect that’s true. I used to go and play tag games there after sittign hunched up for 3 hours (the more sensible came at 1 hour before parshad was served). Nobody can understand a damn thing (gurbani is in braj not punjabi, just that its written in Gurmukhi characters).
If this is what Sikhism is then I am proud to be a Sikh Apostate. I hate taking prashad as it has not been blessed by idols but by a non-existent monotheistic cosmic fuhrer that spends his whole time cruising in the clouds playing the same degenerate Bhangra that is used for pole dancing videos. If a HIndu uses Gurbani then Sikhs go nuts. But look how Bhangra bands exploit khanda (itself a 90 year old invention). Jazzy “Mahmud” Bains uses khanda as gangsta symbol to adorn his neck. The name “Kaur” meant something. But its used by Hard Kaur, famous for one glassy two glassy, three galssy, four, and saying in interview how she likes having it on her back (and I dont mean the glassy in case you’re confused).
And lets face it Simran, while you tried to write an entire PhD to bore us all to death, you now can only manage two liners. When you have finally become disillusioned please be assured that Sanatana Dharma is here to welcome you back.
August 21st, 2007 at 9:40 am
I’ll tell you another story. When I was at university there was this sikh girl studying Pharmacy. She use to shout out ‘Khalistan’ in functions, embarassing myself and a number of others but at the same time she was being used as a bicycle by a local MARRIED muslim lad and she made no attempts to hide this. I work as a dentist and in my practice, I have a sikh girl patient who has a khanda tatooed on her arm which she always exposes but alongside this she is always exposing her 9 inch cleavage. What on earth is that about?
Also in our local gurudwara there is this lady who for years has been singing the Asa Di War on a sunday morning. There are a few hindu ladies who come to the ladies satsang and this Asa Di War lady is always saying to the hindu ladies how the sikhs saved them and how they wouldn’t exist if it were not for the sikhs and all sorts of other rubbish - generally causing bad feeling.
Well, what the hindu ladies didn’t know was that this lady has been having sex with different men for years. Different men use to take her to hotel rooms, empty flats, back of cars etc. It was easy for any man to have her lie on her back and this was well known in the sikh community and the commitee members of the gurudwara made no attempts to remove her from the stage. Probably because she was sleepng with them too. But to her credit, no matter where she was the night before, on the sunday morning she was on stage with a chuni on her head singing ‘Har jug jug bhagat upaya.’
Now then Simran, who are you going to the blame this on? The Hindus, the Indian Government, the namdharis, the radhasoamis, the nirankaris?
Recently the Namdhari gurudwara in southall has been under attack because some scumbag singh sabhias can’t stand it that they have a picture of Lord Krishna in their gurudwara. Let me tell you something Simran, the namdharis were the first community to start the civil disobedience movement against the British. Whilst the Singh Sabhias alongside Macaullife were busy licking the backsides of the British conjuring up plans to propagate their perverse interpretation of sikh monotheism.
August 21st, 2007 at 9:55 am
Whoever your god is Simran, whether he’s the god of Spinoza or the god of Ken Dodd - don’t bring him here.
August 21st, 2007 at 10:47 am
I am a Punjabi. Some of us Punjabis are Hindus and some of us are Sikhs.
Is it not enough for us to be called Punjabis and Indians or do we need to divide ourslves further into Hindu Bhamans and Sikhs Jats and papas etc and let outsiders divide us further.
Punjab which was the richest state in India and suffered 15years of violence because we allowed ourslves to be divided play in the hands of the likes of ISI and CIA.
It is very sad that we divide ourselves by religion. The Sikh are getting worse than Muslims. You only have to listen to discussions on radio stations like Punjab Radio, and you can listen to the venom spewed out by Sikhs against Hindus. Most Punjabi Hindus considered themselves no different from Sikhs in race or religion. But we are constantly told to go away you are not part of us!
I am a Hindu and like my parents i have always prayed at our local Gurdwara. We follow the teachings of Guru Nanak and the morning Gurbani at the Gurdwara brings peace and a good start to the day.
It was very painful when I invited the ladies group from the local Gurdwara to come and recite the Sukhmani Sahib at my house to commemorate my grandmothers 10th death anniversary. We had invited our close family and friends and arranged langer, only to find that the ladied did not turn up on the day. The reason given by the head lady…Bhaman de ghar Sukhmani Sahib da hoi kam nahi…jao puja kar lo. (There is no place no Sukhmani Sahib in a Bhaman’s house….go and do Puja). The attitude of the bhaijis in the Gurdwaras in far from friendly when they find out that you are a Hindu.
The Sikhs keep going on about the massacre of 1984, but has any Sikh ever given any thoughts as to why the public was incenced…..Sikhs in Uk USA and Canada have alot to answer for the price the poor Sikhs payed in India.
Sikhs do not want to be called Hindus and Hindus are not Sikhs. But there is nothing to stop Hindus and Sikh having mutual respect for each other and accepting each other as they are.
No one community can be responsible for the miseries of another. The future of the Hindu/Sikh race relations, looks bleak with idle brains on both sides competing to bark louder!
August 21st, 2007 at 12:53 pm
Balvir, I am very sad to hear about your experience. It is true that sikhs are beginning to be worse than muslims. There is a section of the sikh community which can only be described as vile and disgusting. That is why I don’t keep any links with mainstream sikhs any more. . The fact is there is nothing divine left in them anymore. The ones that were decent have become Hindus, radhasoamis, nirankaris or namdharis. They have separated from them for good. If you saw my previous post you will have read that I was a sikh but I changed. I married a Hindu girl and I bring my children up as Hindus. I don’t want my children to have anything to do with mainstream sikhs.
As far as this lady who made this comment to you is concerned, it’s more than likely her daughters are probably having sex with muslim taxi drivers and getting ready to come home in a hijab. This is not a joke. There was a letter sent to the ‘The Sikh Times’ from a reader who was worried at the rate at which sikh girls are becoming muslims and are developing an unhealthy affinity for the hijab. Apparently in the Bradford registry office at any one time there is a list of at least 100 sikh girls getting ready to marry muslims. When all their daughters begin to marry pakistani waiters and taxi drivers and then end up as single mothers with their disgusting children begging for respect, then these bitches will stop insulting the bhaman. I say serves them right!
August 21st, 2007 at 1:40 pm
Balvir, you make some valid points but do not be seduced by conspiracy theories about CIA. Who needs CIA when you have Nehru the Nazi and his Congress National Socialist Party to do ruin all of India let alone Punjab? In fact Fuhrer Nehru got arms form the USA when China attacked. I agree with the bad attitude of gurudwaras, which is why I like going in with my mobile phone wallpaper showing Mahadeva.
Sanatani I feel like touching your feet, and there are few people I would ever say this to (and there is no ulterior motive as I actually have an NHS dentist, and my teeth are good as I always avoided mithai). The stuff you say is so spot on that only someoen who had in some way beein in “Sikh” community would know it. No wonder why Simran the saudi has gone quiet. I guess half her mates are on their backs takign it like Hard Kaur and that debauched kuti from the gurudwara. I mean lets face it gurudwara has become the best pulling joint outside Birmingham Central Library. How are the Singh Sabha Sikhs going to fight AIDS epidemic among whats left of their dwindling supply of women (due to female abortions in Punjab and all the Jats marrying BMW’s))? By blaming Brahmans and using unblessed karah prashad?
August 21st, 2007 at 2:20 pm
Jat apologises if I have bored you, maybe the eclectic Ravi ‘shut ur face’ Sharma can come back to post some more of his telling comedy stylings to entertain you.
:-)
Anyway this will be my last post (I need to spend more time attending to my Ken Dodd deity – he’s v. demanding!) - so Jat your boredom will soon be abated.
‘…blessed by idols but by a non-existent monotheistic cosmic fuhrer (sic)’
Jat you say you come from a Sikh background, why then do you persist in your claim that Sikh’s believe in ‘monotheistic cosmic fuhrer (sic)’; you should know better than most that the Sikh Waheguru is loving and non-judgemental - there is nothing dictatorial or fuehrer-like about Waheguru. Can you remember a time when anyone has threatened you with Waheguru? – i.e. ‘You’d better do this or Waheguru will ….’ (in the Judeo-Christian fire and brimstone tradition).
‘Jazzy “Mahmud” Bains uses khanda as gangsta symbol to adorn his neck.’
The Khanda maybe ‘exploited’ in many ways but one could equally say the same for the Christian Cross in modern pop culture; as I’ve said in a previous post according to the GGS no Sikh can be judgemental on another person’s ‘Sikhness’. If any man or woman says they are Sikh and recognises the ten Gurus and the teachings of GGS then they are Sikh.
At Uni (Leicester Uni at least) it seems as if a lot of Hindus and Muslims alike have appropriated the Kara – this does not bother me. Sikhi is more than about external symbols like the Khanda/Kara. Amongst the most pious Sikhs I have met have been Mona; conversely I’ve seen Keshdaris disobey the Rohit Maryada. They are still Sikhs; they have just chosen a different path.
‘…Bhangra bands exploit khanda (itself a 90 year old invention)’
As far as I’m aware the Khanda on the Nishan Sahib came into being with formation of the Khalsa in 1699 - when Guru Gobind Singh Ji raised it as his standard. I have also seen pictures of several 200 year old plus GGSs with the Khanda and Ek Onkar embossed on them; so I would question whether the Khanda is only 90 years old.
‘Nobody can understand a damn thing (gurbani is in braj not punjabi, just that its written in Gurmukhi characters).’
As for Gurmuki, well I can tell you as an occasional GCSE Punjabi assistant teacher that this one of the easiest scripts to learn. The grammar rules and syntax conventions are simplicity itself and I’ve seen dedicated adult learners master the script within a week. Gurmuki is only tool in order to manipulate/understand Punjabi; in my experience its not learning Gurmuki (writing) which is the problem but the understanding of the Punjabi (speaking and listening) which is often poor, having said that I have a good friend Sukhi - a native of Wolverhampton - whose Punjabi is second to none.
Most UK universities with active Sikh societies operate Kirtans in English (usually on Wednesdays); Jat, there really is no bar on understanding the GGS – translations in English are commonplace. Understanding the archaic Punjabi in the GGS takes time and concentration, but can be done with effort.
It should be remembered that readings from the GGS aren’t necessarily directed toward Sikh youth, but rather at our Bibi and Baba Jis, who find solace in the words.
‘Well that’s strange because sikh (sic) historians like Khushwant Singh say that Guru Nanak’s bani is a repeat of the philosophy of the Upanishads.’
No sensible Sikh would ever deny that Sikhism has been influenced heavily by Sufi Islam and the Hindu Bhakti-Sant traditions; it’s undeniable, maybe w/o the formation of the Khalsa and the rejection of the authority of the Vedas, Sikhism would just be another Hindu sect, however Guru Gobind Singh Ji forged for the Sikhs a separate identity which emphasised it’s distinction from both Hindu and Muslim.
‘I used to go and play tag games there after sittign (sic) hunched up for 3 hours (the more sensible came at 1 hour before parshad was served).’
I think every Sikh has been there, when one has been sitting cross-legged for the best part of 2 hours in the Divan Hall and struggling with yet another bout of ‘pins and needles’ through every limb. Admittedly when I was young I saw going to the Gurdwara as an opportunity to run around the divan hall like a headless chicken alternating between my mum and dad (the human pin ball!). I always used to volunteer to hand out the tissues and would get a sweet as a reward (Top Swot!).
Also I used to think it was a arduous chore to get up at 5 AM every weekday, comb my hair with alma oil and perform Ardas and the Jaap Ji Sahib; however that was as a child, as an adult I realise how much I’ve benefited from doing it and I actually would be lost completely w/o these prayers/disciplines.
Also Jat, Gurdwaras have changed radically in the past 5/6 years, many of the larger Sikh Gurdwaras now have crèches, libraries, & classrooms and organise Sikh camps and kid focused activities, a Gurdwara today is much more kid friendly; however the interior design tends to be just as drab and unimaginative!
‘All my cousins are degenerate in various ways.’
Sikhism, probably like most world religions, places a high emphasis on the nuclear family, in fact everything about Sikhism shuns the extremes of asceticism and rampant materialism in preference for the balanced family life. I’d admit that if a Sikh comes from a dysfunctional or non-nuclear family, Sikhism and the Sikh community isn’t particularly useful and can be harsh. However with the more regular advent of Jakaras and other open forum discussions this will hopefully change.
See link: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HXDdJkxm9XI
‘…how is it that 9 out of 10 sikh (sic) girls wouldn’t dream of marrying a man who wears a dastaar, they all want to marry clean shaven men.’
True Santani, do you copyright for Whiskers cat food by any chance? Its all down to personal choice but as a matter of principle if a Sikh girl is superficial enough to fail to marry a Keshdari because of his dastaar, then IMO the Sardar is better off w/o her. There are plenty of Sikh girls out there (me included) who find the dastaar, when worn with pride, to be handsome, regal and sign of honest conviction (Singh is King after-all).
Yes, True Sanatani, Sikhs believe that we are all extra-terrestrials from the planet ‘This is Anfield’ placed in the Punjab so that Stevie G and Torres can lead us with glory to the Promised Land.
:-)
I wish you all the best of everything.
August 21st, 2007 at 4:12 pm
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=476449&in_page_id=1770
that and:
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007%5C08%5C20%5Cstory_20-8-2007_pg13_1
and the reaction of a certain “veerji” named “extremist”:
“this is false news and part of the Hindu propaganda their is press release coming tommorow by psgpc explaining and clearing this issue
http://www.sikhsangat.com/Sikh-Shrine-In-Lahore-and39taken-Over-By-Hooligansand39-t30137.html ”
yep u see, Hindus now control Pakistani papers also!!!
this should show us all, where the sikhs are heading ….
and i am glad they say they are not Hindus.
August 21st, 2007 at 4:13 pm
I say if the sikh doesn’t want to be hindu then I couldn’t give a dam if all the sikh girls started having sex with all the Nadeems and Mustafas of this world and had a collection of all the different types of designer hijabs in their wardrobes. At least they’ll start to face Mecca and get out of Hindustan.
August 22nd, 2007 at 8:01 am
Simran, you write at length and normally do not even address the issues. I mena you keep goign on about Gobind rejecting the Vedas. Well please please look at Vichatra Natak unless you think that is some Brahmanist plot.
As to not being Sikh, well believe what you want. Without giving too much away my Jat caste surname is from village near Ludhiana (and just to hint its not Sidhu, unless one takes the maternal side). As to being threatened by Waheguru, well yes that has been said when I wanted hair cut due to health reasons. Sometimes other terms like Parmatma and Sache Pasha are used, but yes it has been done in at threatening manner so I guess that just stuffs that point of yours.
Abusing khanda cannot be excused by peple abusing cross, although like I said khanda is a new fangles Sikh separatist symbol. It does not date from 1699 just liek the obligatory use of kaur in female names doesnt. Don’t believe the hype, history is written by the victors, in this case Singh Sabha nad Macauliffe Sikhs. So may be its abuse is harmonious with tis origins.
Kara is used by Muslims and Hindus and it doesnt bother you. Well ok, it doesnt bother the slapper with Kaur in her name who meets a chap at Bhangra or RnB gig, who has kara, and because she can’t wait to get personal genitalia inspection finds out that he’s circumcised, but ignores it and let’s him jump on her anyway. Tricky one there, whats worse no foreskin or the 4 Skins playing Southall in 1981? At least in the last one the fascist scum got agood kicking, best riot ever! Muslim guys wear kara to pull Sikh girls and trap them into Islam. But thats ok they have kara on.
You then contradict yourself by saying that external symbols are not important! Actually I agree on this for reasons that I (and especially Sanatani) have said repeatedly but it just does not go into your montheistic al-qaeda skull.
Again khanda is recent, and its origins lie in Shaivism.
You confuse script and language. Gurmukhi is the script in which Gurbani is written, but the language is old Hindi, known as Braj Bhasha. Its not Punjabi.
Sufism is often at odds with orthodox Islam. In fact some like al-Rumi I big up to the max. Bhakti (devotionalist) movements of medieveal Hinduism had many sects, of which nanakpanthis were but one. Sikh ideas are firmly Hindu, and are not apart from it. Sikh separatism or Sikhism is and thats why I have no loyalty to it. Separate identity was forged by macauliffe and Singh Sabha, Christian missionaries and marxists, and now by slappers wearing khanda gold necklace over their cleavage and massive kara. Oh how inspiring!
You may personally be very devoted and strict. Bhakti and love in any form is commendable. But that does not answer why Sikhism is so self-alienated and why that communtiy is dysfunctional under the veneer. To explain another example, Sikh girl who drinks and smokes, yet goes to gurudwara regularly, is trying to find man to settle down with from matrimonial site. However he says he doesnt mind that she smokes as he does. As to previous relationships, mmmm. Is that it? They are both Sikhs and that’s fine? Not only is that being tribalistic (no spirituality at all here) but anyone with an ounce of sense can see that he just wants to poke her and move on to his next victim. Its so sad, and the Maoist style teaching of modern Sikhism do not help.
Sikh societies on campus, I mean come on, everyone knows that BOSS is a cult fashioned after Khomeini.
I never thought I would ever say this being a victim of extreme violence in school, directed by teachers, with my long hair mercillesly pulled about, but I REALLY HOPE SIKHISM (Macauliffe, Singh Sabha) DIES. In fact it is anyway and I will sit back and watch the fun. The the so called Sikhs can return to their true spiritual roots. In fact Simran you will be one of the first to do so when you realise the empty shell you are following.
Sanatani, I agree with you again. Let us ethnically cleanse Hindu society of all degenerate elements and that includes Sikh girls that want a one way ticket to Mecca. As Har Dayal once said about shuddi, its like rmeoving foreing matter from the eye.
August 22nd, 2007 at 8:03 am
THIS IS THE FUTURE OF SIKHISM (Sikhs are now Roman Catholics)
I COULD NOT STOP LAUGHING READING THIS. LETS SEE WHAT SIMRAN HAS TO SAY!!!
Sikh girl will convert for a place at Catholic school
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=476449&in_page_id=1770&in_page_id=1770&expand=true#StartComments
By PAUL SIMS - More by this author >> Last updated at 23:18pm on 19th August 2007
Comments (15)
The parents of a Sikh girl want to convert her to Roman Catholicism to win a place at the school of their choice.
Baljit and Bal Singh say they will change their four-year-old daughter’s religion if it means she can attend their favoured school next month.
Scroll down for more …
Maya Kaur’s Sikh parents are considering changing her religion in the hope she may be allowed into the Catholic school
Maya Kaur has been attending a nursery at St Paul’s Roman Catholic School in Wolviston, Cleveland, for the past two years.
But her parents have been told there is no place available for her when she starts full-time education in a few weeks.
After losing an appeal, the couple say they are seriously considering changing her religion
in the hope she may be allowed into the school, which gives priority to Catholic children.
Mr Singh said: “We think Sikhism is similar to Roman Catholicism so we put her in that school. She’s been there for two years, she goes to church with them, she says a prayer before she eats her dinner.
“I’ll baptise her as Roman Catholic so she can go to the school.”
St Paul’s admissions policy gives priority to children who have been baptised Roman Catholic, have been formally received into the Catholic church and live in the catchment area, or who have a sibling at the school. Priority then goes to other Christian denominations before children of other faiths.
The Singhs’ extraordinary proposal is likely to be frowned upon within the Sikh religion, which takes some of its identity from ancestors who were persecuted and martyred for refusing to convert to other faiths.
Among the stories taught within the faith is that of Guru
Tegh Bahadur, the ninth of the founding gurus of Sikhism who was beheaded in 1675 by the Mughal emperor Aurangzeb for refusing to convert to Islam.
The Singhs insisted that they were doing nothing wrong in trying to get the best for their daughter.
“Two years ago when they took her into the nursery why didn’t they say she wouldn’t get a place straight away in the primary school?” said Mr Singh.
“I would have got her baptised then - or I’d have put her in another school.”
Maya has been offered a place at William Cassidi School, a nearby Church of England school. But her parents claim she is upset and wants to remain with her friends.
Catherine Connelly, head at St Paul’s, said the school had received 34 applications this year, compared to the norm of 24. The class size had also been expanded to the legal limit of 30.
“We are proud of our school’s inclusive nature and we have children of several different faiths
and ethnic groups,” she said.
“We allocated the places according to our published admissions criteria which all parents had access to.”
Dharmo Rakshati Rakshata
If you protect Dharma, Dharma will in turn protect
August 22nd, 2007 at 8:46 am
Jat Nihang Mahadev, I thank you for your comments but I wouldn’t want any person who is my equal to touch my feet. I like yourself have seen it all and done it all and we have made an excellent choice. I think we both feel as if we have come home.
It’s a shame Simran isn’t going to send any more posts because I thought it was all getting rather exciting.
August 22nd, 2007 at 12:39 pm
Thank goodness she’s gone off to bore some one else. Good riddence.
August 22nd, 2007 at 12:44 pm
Sanatani, thats typical. When fundos cannot argue they just make some excuse and leave. Not much of that separatist Singh sabha fire left. Its obvious why. Her “faith” has no soul, and she will need several rebirths to work that out. I will be so happy when that degenerate community reaches its armageddon and I want to help it get there as soon as.
But yeah it was getting all rather exciting, and made a big change from all those Khalistan/Macauliffe/singh sabha/maoist-sikh comments that were dominating this board, What they cannot stand is Sikhs (and Jats especially) exposing them for what they are. One just has to mention Namdharis, Vichatra Natak, Dasam Granth, even Ranjot Singh to get them all worried. One day this stuff can be taken to the public debating arena, and once more Mata Durga’s murti will rise radiant at Harimandir Sahib.
August 22nd, 2007 at 12:44 pm
is there such a thing as a self hating Hindu, if there iz then ravi sharma must b the dictionary defnition of one.
August 22nd, 2007 at 12:50 pm
RAM SWARUP SAYS IT LIEK IT IS:
http://www.voiceofdharma.com/books/mla/intro.htm
Indeed, we are face to face with a strange kind of Sikhism. The Sikh Gurus had worked and fought for the resurgence of Hinduism but now we are told that this resurgence is precisely the cause of Sikh uneasiness. Guru Govind Singh started sending Sikh Gyanis to Varanasi to learn Sanskrit and to study the Epics, the Puranas and other classics to understand the Adi Granth itself, but the neo-Akali ideologues find Sanskrit and these classics objectionable. Maharaja Ranjit Singh banned cow-killing in his kingdom and a hundred Sikhs were blown to smithereens by the British because they stood for cow-protection, but now it is an anathema to secularist Akali scholars. The fact is that it is not the old Sikhism of the Gurus but a new version of it which has been taking shape under the impact of very different ideological and political forces that we are meeting. This neo-Akalism is a child of self-alienation and spiritual illiteracy and it, is at odd not only with Hinduism but for that very reason with Sikhism itself.
August 22nd, 2007 at 4:15 pm
Their Armageddon is definitely on it’s way and people like Prakash Singh Badal know this. This is the reason he’s always seen bowing down in Mandirs and in front of people like Ashutosh Maharaj and the Namdhari Guru Satguru Jagjit Singh. This is very different to the Bhindranwale supporting Badal of the ’80’s, when he was always spewing up anti Indian venom. The fact is the Punjab is changing. There are more and more people from other states moving into it. The harsh and aggressive farming techniques employed by the Jat Sikhs is going to make much of the Punjab desert land (within 20 years). Due to the high economic migration it will become a majority Hindu state. It is at this point that these people will realise what they have been doing and everybody will shun them. It’s already beginning to happen.
August 23rd, 2007 at 8:59 am
Jat Nihang Mahadev, I think you are absolutely right when you say that the faith has no soul anymore and I think some of the disgusting and vile sikh websites are proof of this. But to be honest, this vile behaviour has been coming in messages from the top level of the sikh clergy. I’ve heard from people who have worked in Amritsar that the late Gurcharan S. Tohra (the former head of the Shromani Gurudwara Committee) couldn’t make a speech without drowning himself in alcohol beforehand. Then the lady that took over him - Jagir Kaur, apparently murdered her own daughter (this is definitely well publicized). If the clergy are behaving like this,what can you expect from the followers?
But to be honest, a lot of ordinary sikhs hate this behaviour. If you talk to a lot sikh parents who are looking for matches for their children they don’t mind Hindu or Sikh. In fact there is a turbaned sikh man who comes to the local Hindu Mandir here where I live and every morning he sweeps the grounds, picking up all the rubbish, leaves etc. Then cleans the foyer before going back home. So there still may be, a little bit of hope.
August 23rd, 2007 at 1:28 pm
Sanatani, thats true especially with the top down hierarchy system Sikhism has which is reminiscent of the USSR pre-Gorbachev. In my wife’s pre-wedding video (gidian) she poitned out 2 girls who were dancing very well. Guess they would, thats their job, their mother made them into prostitutes, and kileld her husband when he protested (this is Jat family in Punjab by the way).
I took my daughter to Hindu mandir. My dad say “why is she Brahman’s kuri” I said no the Ayatollah Khomeini’s. That ended that discussion. Funny thing is that he fed kheer to Brahmans in the village when he was younger!! (1940s Punjab).
Even more funny, my own sister married a gora Catholic and my parents go on about how nowadays everyone is doing it, and I shouldnt get bigheaded about goign through proper arranged marriages. Examples are given of how the white son in law touches my mother’s feet. I mean waht empty gimicks for an empty artifical Sikh culture! I would only touch feet of someone I respected for their intelligence or behaviour (e.g. Richard Dawkins, Timothy Freke, Koenraad Elst, David Frawley). Sikh culture is crude and barbaric. Parents respect their kids if they kick them in the teeth and show two fingers to them. As the Romans said, he who the gods wish to destory they drive mad. Looking form the outside, I watch the Sikhs hurry to the cliffs like a tribe of lemmings readily hurling themselves into the abyss. But the bright side is that to recreate one must first destroy. Hence my favourite quote is from the Bhagavad Gita, the same one used by Oppeheimer on exploding the very first nuclear bomb:
I HAVE BECOME DEATH, THE DESTROYER OF WORLDS
Sounds better when set to the death metal guitar of 3 Inches of Blood or Sepultura, which makes a change from plastic unoriginal pole dancing Bhangra, cos its an asian thing innit.
Funny how all the Khalistani/singh sabha/macauliffes have again not emerged from the sewer. I guess Simran has gone to do some introspection and contemplate why if Sikhism is so great, all her mates are on their backs every Friday night with a new alcohol inebriated zombie just because he has a kara on.
August 24th, 2007 at 10:52 am
Jat Nihang Mahadev, there is another incident I remember a few years ago in Leicester (probably the same gurudwara Simran attends). We had got together for an occasion and decided that we would go to the gurudwara because there was some function happening. Now, one of my wife’s aunts was in a wheelchair and she was refused access to the diwan. We asked, why? There reason was that we don’t allow wheelchairs in the divan, your aunt will have to listen from outside. When we asked why wheelchairs are not allowed, there reason was that we don’t know where the wheelchairs have been. I was totally sickened by this. So, we had to carry our aunt (which was very painful and distressing for her) out of the wheelchair and took her into the diwan. We have never had this problem in a Mandir. Apparently there has been a recent case in the North where a gentlemen threatened to take the gurudwara to court because they would,t allow his wheelchair bound wife into the diwan. The gurudwara obtained a letter from the Akal Takht saying that it is a rule that wheelchairs are not allowed into the diwan. Well the authorities threw that letter in the bin saying that disabled people in England have rights so we don’t give a dam what the akal takht says - make arrangements for the disabled or you’ll see what we’ll do to you. Well this got the committee trembling so they were forced to make renovations so there could be a section where disabled people could sit in the diwan.
It’s funny that ‘Pinky’ or ‘Bubbly’ is allowed in even though she can’t sit for 5 mins because she was having her anus pounded by Tariq the night before, but wheelchair bound people have to stay outside - DISGUSTING!
Well that’s Singh sabha/macauliffe sikhism for you. I’ll say it again, there is nothing divine left anymore.
I’M SO GLAD THEY’RE NOT HINDU - THE QUICKER THEY GO, THE BETTER.
August 24th, 2007 at 1:19 pm
Sanatani, thats disgusting, sort of attitude the Nazis took towards the disabled. Well it makes sense. Sikhs have no spirituality left and take refuge in racist, ethnocentric fictitious Punjabi identity. Only matter of time before they started practising eugenics (already do with female infanticide).
I fluctuate betwen hatred and pity. What is the naive 18 year old to know, when her parents taught her nothing and her “friends” are up to the same chavvy stuff one could do anywhere. To stick to one’s Dharma is very difficult especially if one did not have it int he first place and was taught nothing but anti-Hindu hate. Simran is an endangered species and she knows it. I used to blame these sluts etc, and still do to en extent, but try and be more detached and actually asky why, because if one asks why then it is possible to find a solution and be more positive.
I used to get aggro when reading how many Sikhs in Punjab convert to evengelical Christianity, but no longer do. Its logical and karmic. What can one expect? Same in UK, and with the fashion among Sikh girls to be Tariq’s human mattress (as well as doormat). Let them go, and let their brothers drwon their sorrows in bicardi and coke (the powedered form). The sooner this Asura cult goes into history as the biggest mistake to come out of Punjab the better.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:34 pm
Its very typical that these neo-Islamo-Sikhs run off soon as their arguments fall apart. Simran tried to use intellectual camouflage to promote her views but still that didn’t work because she couldn’t hide her racist views .And then her heroes turn out to be well known Hindu haters .This shows that modern day neo-Islamo-Sikhism is built on lies and hatred against Hindus and nothing else.What goes around comes around..
August 25th, 2007 at 8:52 am
Shakti, Jat Nihang Mahadev and myself have seen this disgusting section of the sikh community from the inside and we know that you can’t reason with them. So, the only solution is to destroy this singh sabha/macauliffe sikhism. It doesn’t need a lot of help in doing this - it is doing a very good job itself, but we must NOT beg them to come into our community because that makes them feel special which they are most definitely not. The ones who want to come - they’re very welcome and the ones that don’t - well, the men should be sent straight to the circumcision doctor and then given a one way ticket to Saudi and the women can be sent to all the bhangra gigs where they can have all the circumcised genitalia they desire and then sent to the Mecca lap dancing clubs.
I agree with you Jat Nihang Mahadev, they ARE the biggest mistake to come out of the Punjab. I cannot wait for the time when the Murti of Vishnu will be put back into the Harmandir Sahib (it was taken out by these fascists in 1906) and then we can finally have closure on this dreadful period of Indian History.
August 26th, 2007 at 5:11 pm
Simran Kaur Wraitch said:
” If 1 in 5 Sikhs have no qualifications, then how does that translate into your assertion that ‘20% of sikhs (sic) have formal qualification’; surely if 1 in 5 Sikhs have no qualifications then 80% of Sikhs do have formal educational qualifications.”
Maybe it is you who should re-examine the figures? The report clearly states that 1 in 5 sikhs have no qualifications at all. It also states that only 20% of sikhs have a formal qualifications. I quote the comments on the report:
” “Jews, Buddhists and Hindus were more likely than other groups to hold a degree. About four in ten Jews (44 per cent) and three in ten Buddhists (30 per cent) and Hindus (29 per cent) held a degree compared with 22 per cent of people with no religion, 20 per cent of Sikhs and 16 per cent of Christians”
Incidentally, if we were to go by your feeble method of correlatng Religion with Educational performance, the above report also says that people with no religion do better than sikhs - according to this, it is better for students not to practice any religion than sikhism.
Simran Kaur Wraitch said:
” Rohit you must be a deeply interesting chap, a mortgage broker whose hero is Carl Jung. Do you engage in Jungian analysis with your clients perchance (it would be a novel combination)? Do you have a view on the Jung/Freud schism? Was Jung right to dissociate himself so spectacularly from his surrogate father figure, Freud (is this a apt metaphor for the Sikh/Hindu dynamic)? ”
Is this the best you can do to waffle your way of answering my point? It is feeble, even by your standards. Let’s face it, Sikhs have a superiority complex because deep inside they feel inferior to Hindus. They constantly need to prove that they are somehow better than Hindus. This is why you feel the incessant need to come on a Hindu forum with your carefully selected statistics.
Simran Kaur Wraitch said:
” There is nothing ‘wishful thinking’ is my assertion that ‘I am quite confident that by the next UK census in 2011, Sikh academic attainment wrt University degrees will approximate closer to the 31% that the Chinese community currently enjoy’; after all does it not follow that an educated, urbanized parent(s) will more likely produce qualification-attaining children? ”
It is indeed wishful thinking on your part. As Sonya said, your are hypocritical for complaining when others use their personal experiences. Then you come out with the above garbage which has not founding. Since you are spending so much of your life looking at useless statistics to prove sikh superiority, why don’t you come up with some proof to confirm your above statment?
Simran kaur Wraitch said:
“Sonya I’ll happily admit my spelling is poor, but can you point to an instance where I have failed to capitalise the ‘H’ in the proper noun Hindu/ism; all I am asking for is reciprocal respect – is that too much to ask (a simple depression of the [SHIFT] key)?”
I can’t see a single statement from Sonya or anybody else who accuses you of not using the capital H when writing the word Hindu. It is you who came out with some garbage about peoples’ spelling. You are indeed a hypocrite. Learn to spell my name correctly.
Simran kaur Wraitch said:
” No sensible Sikh would ever deny that Sikhism has been influenced heavily by Sufi Islam and the Hindu Bhakti-Sant traditions; it’s undeniable, maybe w/o the formation of the Khalsa and the rejection of the authority of the Vedas, Sikhism would just be another Hindu sect, however Guru Gobind Singh Ji forged for the Sikhs a separate identity which emphasised it’s distinction from both Hindu and Muslim.
It’s nothing different than all these new religions which keep popping up, which have their origins in Hinduism. All of these will deny their roots and all of these will claim that they’re superior to the Religion of it’s origin. Let’s face it, your religion is copied partially from Hinduism and islam (the latter is itself is a copy from Christianity).
Simran Kaur Wraitch said:
” Phew i cream crackered, and Liverpool have only drawn!”
Perhaps you are ‘cream crackered’ because you are unable to waffle your way out of some of the arguments we Hindus (and even your fellow Sikhs) have made about you? You came on here full of that superiority complex that you sikhs seem to suffer from, and now you are unable to live up to it. Maybe you should take the advice of your fellow sikhs and stop pre-occupying yourself with useless statistics in order to portray sikh superiority.
August 29th, 2007 at 9:37 am
Good article. i was stunned when i first came to the uk at the amount of dis-information that young sikhs are taught about India/Punjab and events of 1984 in general. Very few sikhs are told the roots of the problem…and when you do you searches about the topic on the web websites (mainly sikh) are full of blatant lies such as the “indian govt sought to destroy sikhism and Bhindranwale and his men fortified themselves in the Golden Temple to defend sikhism”. most sikhs (and probably hindus as well) here in the uk dont know anything about the terror campaign that these men subjected not just punjabi hindus, but also punjabi (moderate) sikhs during that period.
its quite disturbing that a generation of sikhs outside India see images Bhindranwale on their gurudwara walls as a Sant, valiant warrior and defender of sikhism and and know nothing of the real events.
August 30th, 2007 at 8:51 pm
sikhism is nt part of hinduism at all, sikhism is totaly fiffernt so all da hindus cn stik wit der own reli, n dnt butt into sikhism cuz ur nt wanted.. so dnt no f**a sy sikhism is part of hindus cuz it aint..sikhism beleives in da gurus n ggs..nt in da hindu mathas or ganesh or w.e…so ppl dnt cht s**t
August 31st, 2007 at 12:28 am
“sikhism is nt part of hinduism at all, sikhism is totaly fiffernt so all da hindus cn stik wit der own reli, n dnt butt into sikhism cuz ”
Its obvious by your vocabulary you can’t write and or can’t even read or you would have read many times over no one here is saying that Sikhism is part of Hinduism.The truth is you ain’t good enough to be a Hindus so best luck in your next life but for now you can go back to Jamaica..
August 31st, 2007 at 12:38 am
once again, one more i***t from the sikh community repeats the same, as shakti said you lot ain’t good enuf to be Hindus and we want nothing to do with your likes, so why don’t you s***w off cuz no one wants you to be Hindu.
August 31st, 2007 at 5:03 pm
Khalistan obviously identifies more with the chav yardie culture. No wonder his sisters are the concubines of the local aspiring version (and not even very good) of 50 Cent, Shabba Ranks and Dr Dre. Nobody wants to be part of neo-Sikhism as its a dead zombie corpse artificially kept alive.
I hope you believe in having your “community’s” female population exploitative one waysexual (not even romantic) relationships with every tribe on the planet, because like I said we know your women are s**ts as a direct result of Islamo-Sikhism’s adharmic teaching.
So G, go diss sum1 else innit, u got tings to do, and ur main man is pimping hiz ride.
September 1st, 2007 at 8:38 am
Rohid, just wanted to say that I (and I think Jat Nihang Mahadev - although I know he will correct me if he feels what I have said is incorrect) am not a fellow sikh of Simran’s. I want nothing to do with this arrogant and disgusting person. I have left today’s sikhism. I consider myself totally Hindu and am totally proud if it.
I would like to hear any Hindu’s opinion on this - supportive or unsupportive.
September 1st, 2007 at 11:31 am
“I would like to hear any Hindu’s opinion on this - supportive or unsupportive. ”
Most of us do support you with this because unfortunately these Khalistani Fascists have hijacked Sikhism and have started its destruction within.So as its a sinking ship its best to get off before its too late which for most modern day Sikhs its already too late..
September 1st, 2007 at 11:34 am
There’s not much difference it what Khalistani or Simran is saying apart from one acting as a failed rapper while the other as a failed intellectual.Nazi Khalistani Fascism always shows through whatever the disguise and is doomed to fail.Thats Dharma…
September 1st, 2007 at 12:05 pm
Good article.
Whole truth needs telling. Alot of one sided stuff is told by the khalastanis, ignoring Bhindrawales remarks and actions of his gang:
http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/kashmir/1994/kashmir94-03.htm
http://www.sikhtimes.com/bios_060604a.html
Also Sikhs are a separate identity and are not Hindus. This is obvious, and the RSS needs to stop this Hinduas are all stuff. Also the murderers of the Sikh genocide in Delhi need bringing to justice, and other issues like in the constitution Sikhs need to be recognised as a separate entity, and not part of Hinduism.
Now Bhindrawale and his gang also tortured Baljit Kaur in the Golden Temple, after Surinder Singh Sodhi was killed by her and Chinda. Gurcharan Singh and 75 people were killed by Bhindrawales gang, as he was going to give up.
The attack on the Golden Temple was an outrage, the tmeple shopuld have been surrounded like operation Balck Thunder in 1988. Indira Ghandhi should have been placed under house arrest.
September 3rd, 2007 at 10:45 am
Harimandir Sabib was desecrated long before 1984 Operation Blue Star, when the monotheistic fake Sikhs threw out picture of Guru Gobing Singh standing in reverence before Durga Mata back in 1910. Instead of worshipping Shakti, mother goddess and power of the feminine, modern Sikhs like Simran are so head up their own anti-Hindu rect*ms, that they cannot see that modern Sikh women are only needed for short term exploitative relationships to “prove” their multiculturism.
September 3rd, 2007 at 12:28 pm
dont bother responding to this simran, she is using the socratic method of arguing, which is near impossibal to refute. just ignor her- she is a loser and a racist.
September 3rd, 2007 at 3:38 pm
You are so right Jat Nihang Mahadev, Harmandir Sahib was desecrated long before 1984. As I mentioned earlier, in 1906, these filthy fascists took out the murti of Vishnu ji from it. This community’s days are numbered. They have signed their own death warrant.
September 3rd, 2007 at 4:08 pm
Khalistani said:
” sikhism is nt part of hinduism at all, sikhism is totaly fiffernt so all da hindus cn stik wit der own reli, n dnt butt into sikhism cuz ur nt wanted.. ”
Is this fool an example of the superior educated sikhs that Simran Kaur Wraitch was bragging about?
Khalistani here’s a response in your own language: u iz nt welcum in my posse!
True Sanatani said:
” Rohid, just wanted to say that I … am not a fellow sikh of Simran’s. I want nothing to do with this arrogant and disgusting person. I have left today’s sikhism. I consider myself totally Hindu and am totally proud if it.
I would like to hear any Hindu’s opinion on this - supportive or unsupportive.”
True Sanatani, I welcome fellow Hindus, whether they are born or reverted Hindus. Also, I am indifferent to the majority of Sikhs who acknowledge their Hindu ancestry and respect their Hindu counterparts. My problem is with Khalistanis who seem to live their whole life for the sole purpose of disassociating themselves from, or competing with Hindus.
September 11th, 2007 at 9:21 pm
Wednesday, September 12, 2007 (01:35:25)
http://www.headlinesindia.com/national/index.jsp?news_code=56186
Shivaji a source of inspiration, says Army Chief
Pune: Recalling his days at National Defence Academy (NDA) in Pune from where he passed out as an officer, Army Chief Gen J J Singh on Tuesday said the fighting spirit of Maratha warrior King Shivaji has always been a source of inspiration for armymen. Addressing the platinum jubilee function of the All India Shivaji Memorial Society which also runs a military school here, Singh called upon the boys to imbibe the indomitable courage of Shivaji and contribute their mite to make India a superpower in near future. Singh, who will be retiring on October 1, fondly remembered his association with Pune, saying his marriage too had taken place in the city, known as the cultural capital of Maharashtra.
He said after passing out from NDA he had joined the Maratha regiment and became conversant with the Maharashtra’s history, culture and heritage. The folk ballad or `Powada’ of Maharashtra always served our men as an inspirational song , he said, adding Maratha soldiers are very tough. Singh also mentioned the Maharashtrian delicacy of ’srikhand’ as a culinary delight for which he always craved. He was presented with a replica of Shivaji on the occasion. (PTI)
October 26th, 2007 at 2:19 am
Moderators i hope you don’t delete my comments because their in reply to all the anti sikh comments made in here.
For everyone in here stop accusing other ppl of telling fairty tales when your telling fairy tales yourself
harish ive seen the desi community around the world and in canada tamils don’t run anything when you said that you made me laugh, before you tell other ppl not to tell fairy tales you need to stop doing it yourself as well, they kill eachother and pull extortion on tamil buisness men, their pathetic all it is tamils from sri lanka killing tamils born in canada and vice versa, if some jamaican or african from toronto read your comments they would laugh out loud or if some gora from toronto read tamils run anything they would laugh out loud, the jamacans or gora from toronto would grab the tamils by their legs and play cricket with them, but you know who are even bigger players and considered much more dangerous then the little tamils from toronto are the punjabis in vancouver, the punjabis from vancouver are much bigger players and far more sophisticated and far more dangerous then the tamils from toronto, especially that group independent soilders who are much bigger players then your tamil gangs, actually that punjabi group from vancouver independent soilders influence has reached toronto across the country. Once again i don’t want to talk about gangs but if you want to try using gangs to put down punjabis well then hey those vancouver guys are far more dangerous then any of your tamil gangs from any part of the world, as well london don’t make me laugh the tamils get beatings from pakis and have gotton beatings from sikhs, tamils can only fight big when they outnumber the guy and when they have weapions but when its even numbers with weapions to its tamils who get rocked. I have one article but its not the article im looking for when a paki was killed for saving a group of tamils who were getting beat down by a group of sikhs after the tamils started the fight. The incident was pretty big and was in the newspapers years ago.
Harish the sikh community is extremelly successfull in canada that probably what makes you feel insecure from politics to buisness to athletics sikhs are hanging around the top in canada, from having a keertan in the parliment their to making punjabi the fourth most spoken language in house of parliment behind english french and italian and having one of your primeministers spend on of his anniversary’s in the harmandar sahib sikhs seem to be the most successfull minority group their in politics, but im impressed with whats happining in british colombia even though the sikh community bin hit with hard problems their finally leadership their stepping up and taking control of the problems and made huge impacts their in the sikh community, and the success of the sikh community their is amazing considering at one point the top politican in british colombia was a sikh making him the most successfull minority politican in canada and as well as a sikh being cheif in the vancouver police making him the most successfull minority police officer in canada and also in buisness sikhs are dominating as well as athletics withs are shinning.
you guys need to stop with the fairy tales especially about the sikh community.
Rohid scrolling down read some of your stuff you said, provide me some evidence as well stop with the fairy tales that you work for some top mortgage company and claiming sikhs have the worste credit and it is a true fact sikhs are most likely to own their own home not hindus like you claimed, AS WELL AS SIKHS BEING MOST LIKELY TO OWN THEIR OWN HOME SIKHS ARE ALSO THE MOST SUCCESSFUL RELIGOUS GROUP OVERAL IN ENGLAND.
http://hcilondon.net/hciserv/NewsIndex?source=newsdetails&NewsCode=871
This talk about sikhs and education the older generation doesn’t have much education but the younger generation born in uk are far more educated and getting educated. As well sikhs born in england are twice as likely to have degrees then sikhs born outside.
As well harish you talk about 1857 and accuse sikhs of this and that because they didn’t participate, fact 1. hindus only rebelled because their was cow greece being used in the weapions and this angered the hindu soilders in the british india army but if their was no cow greece being used the hindu soilders in british india army would of never rebelled, secondly what about the gurkhas and many other hindus who stayed loyal to the british mind commenting on them, as well why did the hindu soilders get scared when fighting the british and hide behind the muslims and started giving them support to help rebuild mughul rule in india the same mughuls who had tortured and converted millions of hindus, 1857 the first war of independence i don’t think so more like the last war of the mughuls and their are books written about 1857 claiming it was the last chance for mughuls to take rule of india again. Sikhs didn’t want mughuls to rule india and saw the mughuls bigger of two evils.
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