An open letter to The Times
Recently, The Times newspaper published sections of ‘Suffering in Silence’, a series of two articles published last year in Hindu Voice UK, and took a picture of the article’s author directly from our site, without requesting our permission beforehand (view). As well totally violating our copyright, they also showed a lack of courtesy to the article’s author, Natasha Jalota, who also was not contacted beforehand. The following is a response that we have sent to The Times.
March 26th, 2007 at 9:45 pm
Just out of curiosity. Was the article in The Times published in the daily newspaper or just made available on their website (by the link given above)?
March 27th, 2007 at 11:10 am
The Times must reply and give full explanation and if not reply regal action to be taken with the paper.
March 27th, 2007 at 4:47 pm
Sir, It will interest us all very nuch to see a reply from the Times newspaper. Devinder Thakur
March 27th, 2007 at 8:27 pm
Why did the Times paper take the article without permission. I understand that Natashaji must feel really upset, her name was published without her consent. Times newspapers owe Hindu voice AND Natashaji a formal and public apology.
March 27th, 2007 at 11:20 pm
Maybe the NSHF or the Hindu Forum gave the Times the info… who knows but I bet the truth will out and it could come out as quite interestiing who gave what to whom… they maybe closer then you think my dear Hindus
March 29th, 2007 at 6:52 pm
i wish the Times paper exposes the fraudelent conversions happening all over the world by chrisitain evangilists.
they talk of human rights all the time, is this human rights.
March 31st, 2007 at 8:13 pm
It is interesting that NHSF and Hindu Forum have been mentioned as suspects with absolutely no proof whatsoever. Such speculation is somewhat reminiscent of the witch hunts of earlier Christendom. In addition, I fail to see how arguing amongst ourselves, particularly in a public forum, can possibly achieve anything positive for the British Hindu community.
I am reminded by all of this of a Hindu temple in a British city who a few years ago was awarded a grant by the local government to be used for improving their facilities and services; unfortunately, another temple in the same city got wind of this and not only wrote but even visited some local councillors to advise them to reverse the award decision for various reasons. As it happened, the councillors concerned knew the trustees of both temples very well and knew full well that there was no truth in any of the allegations; however, the award was withdrawn anyway (too contraversial, politicking and vote issues, etc.) and ultimately neither temple received anything. Ultimately, all the whole thing achieved was to demonstrate to the local government just how messed up a community we are. As per usual, we are our own worst enemy.
April 1st, 2007 at 10:21 am
Satya
You seem to be an apologist for the two organisations - NHSF and HIndu Forum.
Do you have a stake in these two organisations?
I used to be a part of the Hindu Forum and have know the people at the NHSF as well.
While you go all high and mighty with your examples of temples etc… lets talk about the cowardice of both organisaitons that are supposed to represent te Hindu people in this country.
Both have “fumbled the ball” and “sat back when being attacked”
But instead of holding these people responsible for their acts, people like you come out and excuse them their stupidity and their incompetence.
Organisations like the NHSF and the Hindu Forum sell themselves to the mainstream as groups who represent the Hindus in this country.
Problem is their is not transparency nor their is there any strong leadership.
But I supposed that people like you and others of your ilk… are too happy to have the stupid and self interested represent decent hard working hindu’s … just like the mother land.
Good luck mate.
If these organisations do not step up and start doing what they promised they will be demolished and another will take their place.
Then you will have no one to defend….
then what will you do.
April 2nd, 2007 at 3:35 pm
Forgive my ignorance, but isn’t it a good thing overall, that the Times published this article? It would have been nice if they could print is exactly like it was written by the original author, however, the times has a much wider/larger audience, which means that our concerns are read by many more people. There are a lot of pro Hindu authors who specifically encourage others to publish their article (fully, without changes) in order to get a larger audience for their cause.
I am especially interested in these articles reaching the ignorant part of the Hindu community, who rarely go to the Temple or community events, who have been diluted into christian society. This part of the community is not likely to browse this website, but more likely to read an article in the Times.
April 4th, 2007 at 9:42 pm
Hey Satya
Get a copy of this weeks “Eastern Eye” and see how your precious NHSF have turned traitor to the anti conversion issue….
They and you have no credibility left anymore…. best to move aside now and let others fight the good fight…. with your lot around who need enemies.
have a good one…
April 6th, 2007 at 3:33 pm
Jackb, you dish out a lot of divisive rhetoric, but it doesn’t seem to carry much substance. You accuse others here of being apologists, and yet do not see the impropriety of derailing this valid discussion into an attack on NHSF and HFB.
You also seem to have very little knowledge about these organisations. NHSF, for instance, is run by students and is not a PR machine for the Hindu community. If you saw, understood or participated in the grassroots work they undertake at campuses across the country, you might begin to acknowledge their value to the Hindu community and the wider society.
On the topic of this thread, I agree with Rohid: surely this is good publicity? I did not read anything harmful in the Times article and the additional readership will reach out to those who aren’t subscribers to the Eastern Eye. I also do not see any advantage in making this letter to the Times public, as it does not seem to achieve anything. A private complaint, I feel, would me more effective and may even show the Times that their coverage of this issue is valued.
April 7th, 2007 at 10:12 am
Jagar, how nice of your to write back. As for your dumb asseration that I have no idea of what the great and mightly NHSF do, I do. I have met many of these so called leaders and yes they are supposed to be a part of the greater hindu voice. But they have shown themselves as idiots, pansies and numpty’s. (check out the nothern slang dictionary for that last word)
yes I am divisive in the same way that a certain MK Gandhi and Subhash Chandra Bose where. I bet you and your pansie mates would probably have asked those two to shut as well.
With Hindu’s like you no wonder we are in the mess that we are in now.
Why don’t you read last weeks Eastern Eye and then see what your precious NHSF is up to.
We need the youngsters to take a the lead now, be determined and focused and strong and proud of being a Hindu.
We don’t need back stabbers like the NHSF.
Time to crawl back under the rock you came from.
Go have some chai and pakora my son and then you can hug a tree and munch some carrots.
baaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh (sheep bleater)
April 7th, 2007 at 12:28 pm
Once earlier in this forum, I was accused of trying to convert Hindus to Christianity through the back door; this time I am accused of being an apologist and so on. I wonder if Dangerous, who was so ready to accuse me of paranoia could explain to me how this is not personal attack?
Anyway, hopefully, now that the above commentator has worked out his anger, perhaps we could discuss the actual issues rather than what I may or may not be or what I may or may not have done. Accordingly, I await a response to what I actually said rather than an attack on what I may or may not stand for.
April 14th, 2007 at 1:13 pm
Surely it boild down to this…………..some of us (myself included) believe that a large HINDU org like NHSF can and should fight for the rights of Hindus…or at the very least it should highlight our ills and qualms.
Juggernaut orgs like NHSF and Hinduforum surely have a duty to speak for us…to be our voice.
BUT they dont…..hinduforum try at times…and they highlight issues…but they dont do enough! and in my opinion NHSF are way too concerned with organising events then actually tackling issues.
Ours org have become too self conscious and have become blinded by their ambitions to project an almost secular and definately overly politically correct face. (typical Hindu orgs then!)……in such a scenario, Hindus will never have any support.
April 15th, 2007 at 1:11 pm
Dear Satya…
All I have to say to you at the moment is Namaste, chill out bro. But you’ll get more less pleasant stuff from me a bit later.
Warm Regards,
Rajun
Jai Shivaji, Jai Bhavani
April 15th, 2007 at 6:57 pm
Dangerous, it is most interesting that you feel that I need to chill out, despite never having directly attacked any individual or organisation in any of these discussions, and yet you feel it entirely appropriate behaviour for others to vent their spleen at the drop of a hat, lashing out at both individuals and organisations, often inappropriately, inaccurately or on occasion, even potentially quite hurtfully.
As regards the large Hindu organisations, surely the fact that they are large organisations (i.e. have many Hindus as members) in itself speaks volumes - do they speak for Hindus or do the small, arguably radical fringe groups (who have a handful of Hindus as members) speak for Hindus? Perhaps NHSF et al are politically correct and secular; have you considered that perhaps that’s what the majority of Hindus wants? Of course, it may not be so - who’s to say? Hmm…who wants a research project?
April 15th, 2007 at 6:59 pm
P.S. All of this is not to say that I don’t understand the frustration; db8 et al, I do see where you’re coming and I’ve been there myself, but now I’m not too sure. As I’ve said before, I’m just learning, as are we all..
April 16th, 2007 at 11:20 am
Yes Satya you do need to chill out, because right from the beginning of your time on this discussion blog you always act neurotic and offended every time anybody challenges anything you have to say. The whole point of forums like these is to put your point across, even if it means challenging the view of others…and that is no need to get offended.
That’s what I’m saying.
Anyway, back to NHSF. If people wanted NHSF to be the way they are, they would have “slightly” more membership than they do now. I was with them (quite recently) for a long patch, and I know that (1) they have only few direct members and only something like 200 subscribers to their years old magazine “Hum” and (2) that they do not reach the vast majority of Hindus in any way shape size or form.
The people who I have seen make a difference are not NHSF but the innovation of individual Hindu societies, irregardless of their affiliation to NHSF or any other student body. I have also seen that another student group, Shakti Marg, do some good work in supporting individual Hindu socities that wish to be innovative and step out of the norm.
April 16th, 2007 at 5:36 pm
“Juggernaut orgs like NHSF and Hinduforum surely have a duty to speak for us…to be our voice. ”
db8 , The truth is the orgs are only big on paper but in reality they cant even get more then 2-3 people together.Just go to any of their meetings to see that.Forget them even being paper tigers but they’re not even paper cats.
April 16th, 2007 at 5:38 pm
“they have only few direct members and only something like 200 subscribers to their years old magazine “Hum” ”
Actually its down to about 19 the last I heard.
April 17th, 2007 at 6:05 am
Dangerous, please do point out any examples of me being offended by my views being challenged, so that I can learn from my mistakes. On the other hand, yes I do have issues with personal attacks, whether against me or anyone else, as I feel that is not in the spirit of what ought to be a rational forum - it will be noticed that I have in the past pointed out instances of personal attack against others also and have requested posts be removed for being inappropriate. My issue is not with debate - as I have repeatedly said, I am here to learn and am grateful to all for teaching me; however, there is a right way and a wrong way to carry out such debate, and I hope that it is only in accordance with this that I have taken offence - kindly correct me if I am wrong.
If what you say is true reference NHSF membership being as low as that, then surely there is no issue - it is dying off and would be well left alone to do so. Having been out of the loop for some time now, I had no idea it had dwindled to such an extent. It is a shame, as originally, both the organisation and many of its members and executives did a great deal of good work. Still, it is in the nature of the world for society to cast off the old and take on the new.
April 17th, 2007 at 2:10 pm
dev, your last two comments are factually incorrect. They don’t deserve a reply, suffice to say that the reality is very different.
On the issue of NHSF membership, every student that is a member of a Hindu society affiliated with NHSF is an NHSF member. This number runs into thousands. Many NHSF events have been attended by hundreds, and possibly thousands, of students. Criticising HUM’s subscription rates is irrational considering the (free) electronic newsletters every NHSF member receives.
Part of NHSF’s function is to cater for Hindu students on campus, and individual societies are generally run by democratically elected representatives. Therefore, if the Hindu student population is apathetic to the issues mentioned above, this will necessarily be reflected in the events and activity of the societies, regardless of what NHSF or anyone else does. This is a result of working in a democracy rather than a dictatorship. I’m not saying NSHF is perfect. However, the criticisms above are hardly constructive.
April 17th, 2007 at 6:42 pm
Jigar, Satya
If the NHSF is as good and as mighty as you say they are then maybe you can explain why they decided to hold a “National Security Conference” to highlight the plight of “aggressive conversions” and then when the Eastern Eye went around to 30 Hindu student societies they all said that they has no problem, with Mr Ladwa from the Leicester Society even coming out to give a quote to that effect.
So whether they have 100’s, 1000’s or even millions of “paper members” does not mean a thing when asked to stand up for something they themselves brough to the attention of the nation the “leaders of the NHSF” hide away and even worse come out and say there is no problem as all.
As for “personal attacks” - Satya you must start to understand that if Hindu leaders let their constituents down then yes, they will be attacked.
This my friend, is not India, and we are not Hindus of the old ilk.. down trodden and waiting for someone to finish us off.
You talk about democracy Jigar, well in all democracy the leaders are helf accountable. Only with the NHSF and the Hindu Forum there are always people like you and Satya who come out swinging in their defense when they have completely and utterly screwed up.
As for rational debate… while you guys are defending our so called leaders the real problems are still out there.
So go on, please debate away and do some more research .. . eventually you will wake up and find that their is nothing to research or debate.
Have a good one and I look forward to your defense of the wonderful NHSF and Hindu Forum.
JB
April 17th, 2007 at 11:43 pm
jackB, you don’t seem to have read my last comment. I never said NHSF was perfect. However, whining about its perceived shortcomings is an ineffective ploy unless there are clear alternatives. I don’t see any other Hindu student organisation with as much coverage, influence or backing as NHSF.
I think this discussion has reached a dead end, so I won’t contribute further at this point. I sincerely hope some of the rhetoric here is replaced with constructive criticism.
April 18th, 2007 at 3:56 am
“On the issue of NHSF membership, every student that is a member of a Hindu society affiliated with NHSF is an NHSF member. This number runs into thousands. Many NHSF events have been attended by hundreds, and possibly thousands, of students.”
Yeh right.I’ve been to their events and I haven’t seen these thousands as you report.This newsletter is only recent and how many people read it is another question itself.Face it their leaders are totally uninspiring and haven’t even made a dent in the younger Hindu generation at all or we would see them active in Hindu activties..
April 18th, 2007 at 3:57 am
I don’t see any other Hindu student organisation with as much coverage, influence or backing as NHSF.
What coverage and influence ? I haven’t like many others have seen any evidence of it..
April 18th, 2007 at 4:02 am
“As for “personal attacks” - Satya you must start to understand that if Hindu leaders let their constituents down then yes, they will be attacked.”
I totally agree these Hindu leaders and groups deserve to be pulled up because most of the time they’re too busy thinking about the limelight and how to get MBES and OBES.The only group I’ve seen to be more visible raising Hindu issues has been Hindu Human rights.They are at least out and about and not busy have chai pakoras and just chit chatting..
April 18th, 2007 at 1:31 pm
So much anger! Seriously, do you REALLY think you’re “pulling up” Hindu groups? Destructive criticism by its very nature is destructive.
April 18th, 2007 at 5:29 pm
“So much anger! ”
Excuse me what anger ?
“Destructive criticism by its very nature is destructive. ”
What is so destructive ? So these groups shouldn’t even be questioned ? Sorry buddy but we’re not living in Maoist China but in a democratic country where we have just like in the Hindu tradition the right to question these Hindu groups mentioned.Instead of not facing the truth why dont you provide us some proof that these same two groups have actually contributed positively or to the Hindu profile in the UK.
April 21st, 2007 at 6:39 pm
Is there anyone from NHSF who can explain Jack B’s comments about NHSF saying there are no problems on campus?
April 22nd, 2007 at 11:16 pm
1. Dangerous, I await your response - please point out an example of me behaving in a “neurotic and offended” manner when my views are challenged (bearing in mind that my views being challenged is different from me being personally attacked). I personally am unable to recall such an instance; however, if I have done so, I would appreciate you pointing it out so that I am able to learn from my mistakes and improve myself.
2. jackB, my aim here is not to defend NHSF or anyone else, as I have nothing to do with them. However, please do highlight where I have said that NHSF is “good and mighty”? What I have said is that if they are not doing what you think they should be doing, then it is your responsibility to change that. Surely if the current NHSF leadership is as pathetic as you seem to make out, it should be a fairly easy job for a strong, committed Hindu with good leadership skills to steer it out of their hands and take it in the direction they want; indeed, since the NHSF is governed by the rules of the NUS, its leadership is subject to democratic process - in which case, surely, by definition, it is truly representative of its constituency (i.e. British Hindu students).
3. dev, as I have said in the past, I agree entirely that Hindu Human Rights does good work. However, it should be noted that human rights, whilst an important area, is just one issue; any representative Hindu body has to focus on a number of issues. In the same way, if the Labour party chose to focus solely on pensions (for example), the country would fall to bits. So whilst I fully support the work of such organisations, they cannot be compared with representative bodies, which have a very different role.
4. dev, I agree entirely that Hindu leaders and organisations should be questioned and held to account by those they represent. But that is clearly not what is going on here. What is going on here (going right back to the initial mention of NHSF in this discussion) is random, baseless, unsubstantiated accusation. In what way is this any different from, to take your own metaphor, Maoist ‘justice’ that executes first and questions later.
5. Hugo, I assume from the fact that despite considerable provocation there have been no voices raised in actual defence of NHSF (I emphasise again that defending NHSF is neither my aim nor my interest), there is no NHSF representation here. However, NHSF are directly contactable via their website or through any of their local branches.
May 23rd, 2007 at 12:11 pm
I have now finally procured a copy of the Eastern Eye issue referenced above and have read the offending article. I personally see nothing wrong with what has been said there and would invite others to educate me on where exactly the problem lies. The full article from Eastern Eye is reproduced below:
[Begin article]
Title: Hindus Undo
Author: Gauri Sharma
Publication: Eastern Eye
Date: March 30, 2007
Little evidence found of forced conversions
The Hindu Forum of Britain has allayed fears that Muslims are forcibly converting other students at university, claims first made at one of its events.
Last month, the Forum staged a security conference, to which it invited the Metropolitan Police and mainstream media. Among the topics raised by the 160 delegates was the issue of Hindu students being aggressively converted by Muslim students on campus.
Media reports claimed that Hindu students were being ‘forcibly’ converted by Muslims. Aggressive conversion is not against the law while forced conversion is, according to HFB guidelines.
Since the meeting, Eastern Eye contacted 30 Hindu students’ societies - and none could provide a single example of an aggressive conversion at their university.
EE contacted university societies across British cities, including ones in Leeds, London, Manchester and Nottingham.
Vipul Ladwa is the president of the National Hindu Students forum (NHSF) at University of Leicester.
Mr Ladwa said: “There have been no incidents as far as the Hindu society on Leicester campus is concerned. Our relationship with the Islamic society is good.
“We do not have any events together, but if the society was in need of a helping hand from the Hindu society we would be more than happy to help out.”
A spokesperson from the NHSF society at the University of Birmingham said: “Since we took our roles in the committee last September, no one has yet informed us of any intimidation that has taken place on campus.
“However, in our opinion, it must be emotionally difficult to report such experiences and most people would probably prefer to talk to a close friend rather than an organisation.
“As a result, we have discussed this issue among the committee, and aim to encourage and empower our members to report any incidents to us.”
Ramesh Kallidai, the Secretary General of the Hindu Forum of Britain (HFB), responded to Eastern Eye’s survey. Mr Kallidai said: “The issue has been blown up by the media. It was written that I spoke about ‘forceful’ conversions but we were dealing with ‘aggressive’ conversions.”
After the meeting, the HFB and the National Hindu Students Forum (NHSF) began investigating to see the extent of the issue.
Faisal Hanjra, spokesman for the Federation of Student Islamic Societies (FOSIS), said: “Having travelled up and down the country and spoken to many different Islamic society presidents we simply have not seen any evidence suggesting that these forced conversions are actually taking place.
“It would be useful for the Hindu Forum of Britain to produce some evidence substantiating its claims and we look forward to working closely with them to do what we can to ensure that these sort of activities, if proven to exist, are dealt with.”
[End article]
In addition, it is worth pointing out that the NHSF action plan following the Security Conference is available at their website - http://www.nhsf.org.uk
It is my understanding that since the event, NHSF has set up a working group to look into this issue; I would urge those who are aware of specific instances of intimidation or aggressive conversion activities taking place to contact them so that a database of meaningful evidence can be collated.