Racial Profiling and Hindus in the UK
Last month, the security agencies thwarted the latest in a series of attempts by terrorists to attack and maim the structure of this country. It seems that every time we hold our breath, we hear of yet another audacious plan to inflict casualties on the civilian population in the United Kingdom, being prevented by the authorities in the nick of time. We live in the awareness that further attacks are inevitable, because the chances of intercepting each and every terrorist plot is virtually impossible.
October 24th, 2006 at 8:27 am
We as humans must respect our national institutions no matter what issues we have against the government. There are ways of protesting against the actions of government which will be noticed BUT terrorism is not a solution(its a act of coward).
Whenever an individual or a group of individuals commit a crime on a nation it should be death sentence.
By relaxing the law on an individual will create more individuals to follow act because there is no respect for the law.
The governments of India,U.S.A and United Kingdom must act together because the seeds of terrorism are raised against these country’s mostly.
October 25th, 2006 at 11:34 am
The government of India should use and make Afzal write his thoughts and deeds firstly. He should be made to do the good deeds and services to humanity for the rest of his life.In Hinduism the story of Valmiki is well known.he was a robber in the jungle at first .then becomes a Rhishi and the author of Ramayana.
October 30th, 2006 at 6:14 pm
AUM
The Indian State is on test. A convicted terrorist was not hanged on 20 Oct 06 because of a mistaken notion that he had petitioned the President of India for clemency. The truth is that he has not petitioned for clemcncy so far. Only his family has done it and that is not tenable under the constitution. Further the convicted terrorist has not expressed any remorse for his conspiratorial role which is a pre-condition for the clemency petition. If the constitutional requirements are not me, one wonders how the petition is tenable.
In my opinion, which has the support of a vast majority of Indian citizens, the terrorist convictec and sentenced by the Supreme Court of India to deat MUST BE HANGED. A camapaign to the contrary is HIGH TREASON.
November 20th, 2006 at 8:45 am
There is a very good suggestion in Rupe Patel asking the Hindu Voice UK to get less ‘closetted’ be only religio-cultural taht is , but get more citixenerily-political.
For insance the Hindu Voice can question the logical validity of Tibbit’s Test as it is shere absurdity to propose a ‘reaction to a cricket game’ as in encouragement particularly as implying a mass ethnic negative stance towrds the other team.
You can get Hindus to narrate their experiences - as in the contexts of ethnic-negativity or positive harmony.
Hope I make sense !
Vedapushpa
[social anthropologist]
Bangalore - India
November 20th, 2006 at 9:44 am
I have to say that the Hindu Indians have taken over this site, although it is about the Hindus in UK. The issues which are of interest to the Indian Hindus are not interesting for the Hindus in UK. I give some examples:
(1) It is not important whether Afzal will be be hanged on 25th December or on 1st January. However, it is important for the Hindus in Britain that the British media will not get a chance to show that there is no justice in India. Otherwise for day after day, we will be denounced as uncivilized violent Hindus killing Muslims in India for no reason. For that reason alone, a retrial for Afzal may be needed.
(2) It may be of great importance for the Indian Hindus to glorify Naga Sanyasis or Hanuman, but for the Hindus in Britain, there are the sources of abuses coming from the British media for the Hindus of Britain. Thus, it is better to supress these exotic features of India, which are irrelevant for the Hindus in Britain.
(3) The British society is either completely ignorant about Hindu religion and civilization or they have totally wrong information. It is essential to give them the right kind of features from the Hindu religion, i.e., progressive Hinduism which has affected great minds of the West since the arrival of Raja Rammohan Roy in Britain in the late 19th century. Although that type of Hinduism is not popular among the Indian Hindus, but that is the only way to earn respect from the Host community.
(4) It is absolutely neccessary for any Hindu organization to propagate more about Hinduism, without being threatening.
It is essential to differentiate us from the Muslim community totally, as they are against us in every way. The attacks on Indians in Britain is mainly due to the militant Muslims attacking the Western people, whether in London or in Madrid or in New York.
British think everyone is a Paki if his skin-colour is brown, it does not matter whether he is from Mexico or from Malaysia. If Hindus do not differentiate themselves from the Muslims, they will be under attacks for the crimes being committed by the Muslims.
These are issues which are important. I totally object to the “Secularist-Sociologist” from Bangalore who is more interested in some Sub-altern Post realisim Post-moderism Structuralisms which she may have learned from the JNU than on the crisis the Hindus face in Britain, because the host community cannot differentiate Hindus from the Muslims.
November 20th, 2006 at 4:07 pm
“Thus, it is better to supress these exotic features of India, which are irrelevant for the Hindus in Britain.”
So we see that Dipak bose is a slave to white peopla and what they think of us, you are what people would call the Bengali babu or Brown sahib.
Only you would be shameless enough to suggest that we supress information about people like the Naga Sanyasin’s just because they don’t confirm to western standards of morality or progressiveness, these were the people who fought to their death against Abdali’s forces to protect the mandir of Gokulnath.
“But here the monks were martial NAgA sannyAsis of upper India and RajputAna. Four thousand of these naked ash-smeared warriors stood outside Gokul and fought the AfghAns, till half of their own number was killed after slaying an equal force of the enemy. Then at the entreaty of the Bengal subahdAr’s envoy (Jugalkishor) and his assurance that a hermitage of faqirs could not contain any money, the AbdAli recalled the detachment. ‘All the vairAgis perished but Gokulnath [the deity of the city] was saved’, as a Marathi newsletter puts it.” [Rajwade, i. 63.]156
http://voiceofdharma.com/books/tcqp/chi6.htm “
November 20th, 2006 at 5:06 pm
DB gernerally your articles are vebose and wandering. However, your latest is accurate and relevant for All Hindus, those of India and us. The Indian Hindus give us a much missed heritage, however, we need true focus on Being Hindu.
I have tried hindunet but I find the presentation on this site thehinduvoice.co.uk much more flowing and debates more “hindu”.
It would be nice to have a core number of essential / cornerstone Hindu values / beliefs which identify us as The Aryawarth! The Moslems have their 5pillars of Islam, The Christians 10commandments.
We Need the Seven Core Values of this faith.
Someone needs to give us a Core.
Any Takers? Dr Seghal? DB?
November 21st, 2006 at 4:59 am
Core values of Hinduism are there in Bhagwat Gita Ch 16, Verses 1-4:
“Freedom from fear, purity of heart, constancy in sacred learning and contemplation, generosity, self-harmony, adoration, study of the scriptures, austerity, tighteousness;
Non-violence, truth, freedom from anger, renunciation, serenity, aversion to fault-finding, sympathy for all beings, peace from greedy cravings, gentleness, modesty, steadiness;
Energy, forgiveness, fortitude, purity, a good will, freedom from pride — these are the treasures of the man who is born for heaven.
Deceitfulness, insolence and self-conceit, anger and harshness and ignorance— these belong to a man who is born for hell”
November 21st, 2006 at 1:48 pm
I’m a Hindu from the Carribbean, and have grown up the UK , worked and lived there since the 1950″s. I’ve seen the changes on my annual visits, since I was transferred to the US in the 1980’s.
I agree that the native population cannot distinguish (whites that is), Hindu
from Muslim. So it is incumbent on Hindus through the proper channels ,to
voice their concerns and not be “tarred and feathered” with the same brush.
I believe Muslims are all now reading from the same page, projecting themselves as victims and to grab headlines. Their sponsers provide “oil
money “to help them on the way.
AS the old saying goes: “when the going gets tough, the tough gets going”.
SO all Hindus must project themselves as Hindus, and not as “budhus”,
always critical how others view Hinduism. There is much to criticise
in other faiths ,if one chooses to look carefully. I can give you verse and chapter but for no good reason.
November 21st, 2006 at 6:01 pm
Kudos to your web-site.
It is wonderful.
Please continue publishing as it is being published now.
People like Rupa Patels might feel that it is ‘—-centric’.
But just ignore them.
November 21st, 2006 at 6:55 pm
dipak….youre posts are insulting and derogetory to Hindus…regardless of whether they are from India, Uk..etc etc..
Im am born and bred in England…I am PROUD of my religion an dculture and have no desire to pander to the western worlds vision of what is moral and “normal”….I WILL worship monekys (Hanumandada) and Elephants (Ganpatidada) et al. And I will and DO proclaim loudly and proudly that I do. All I get is respect by people who would otherwise have questioned an “alien” concept…basically, what you are advocating is that we be weak and give in and CONFORM….bullshit…we as Hindus need to proud and defiant.
Dipak Bose…you worry me and I hope there arent too many people like you about in the UK filling Hindu minds with such weak and docile suggestions.
November 21st, 2006 at 7:29 pm
Proud Hindu - Stand Down. Access the Rg Veda you will see much sense in DB’s position.
Pointer - When things go wrong it is a wake up call. Soamnath 1026 Genocide. How could Great Indra allow this episode. Poss answer. We had turned our backs on the Vedas and adpoted new practices eg. Shiva Lingam, Hanumaan worship etc. these are not in the Vedas.
DB I believe is trying to get to a Purer Faith. The Rg Veda is a shocking book of Passion, Pride, Acquisition etc. Not the psuedo-Catholic version of Hinduism we now promote.
Purity of faith - The Aryawarth do not have these alien practices that DB mentions.
Proud Hindu (Fine Name, I like it) if you check the Rg Veda (Central Book of this faith) you will find not a shred re. elephants / monkeys. I have read all the Books of the Rg Veda. If you do find info top the contrary pls mail back.
We Aryawarth are seeking purity so that our Great Faith will rise from the filth brought to it by the Islamics & Brits.
Pndt Deeno Sharma
November 21st, 2006 at 8:53 pm
Deeno sharma, u seem like ur going to have to join Dipak Bose as cannon fodder. Send u guys so Hindus like proud Hindu, harish d and myself can be safe. A win win situation!
November 21st, 2006 at 9:18 pm
Dude I fight back. It is men like me that will clear this faith of crap. Listen I can’t do this crap. Hindus seem quite adept at “in-fighting” please excuse me from your games.
The Gig still remains “Show me the Rg Veda authority on current practices” Not some childhish prattling. So show me!
November 21st, 2006 at 9:42 pm
Park X . Proud Hindu. Harish D. You guys talk a good fight. Try this link
Shiv Temple used as slaughterhouse by Pakistanis
http://www.hindujagruti.org/temple/index.php?id=10
You smart guys now tell me if the fight is here or somewhere else?
Quest remains - The Rg Veda authority guys, answer awaited.
November 22nd, 2006 at 12:47 am
I dont proclaim to be an authority on the vedas…Ive never read them and I admit this. BUT, DB, in his quest (and seemingly yours) advocate things to appear more “normal” as per the western view point. This is a weak mindset. Youre both being typical Hindus who are too afraid to be seen to be different. You may be from the UK like myself…and wheras DB is scared/ashamed to have any associations with the ideals that we worship, I feel no need to bow down to western and abrahamic “morality”.
November 22nd, 2006 at 12:49 am
BTW, the slaughter house example is WHY I get so annoyed with pacifist Hindus…only Hindus would sit back and allow this to happen. I fight my fair few battles in my limited capacity where I live.
November 22nd, 2006 at 6:20 am
I am asking everyone if you are a Hindu, read Rig Veda, Upanisad and Bhagwat Gita. These books are what we call Hinduism.
Regional practices and superstitions are condemned by Sri Krishna himself.
There is nothing Western or Eastern about it. That is the reason great minds of the West were and are always attracted to the fundamental Hindu doctrines.
However, if you emphasize strange practices which have nothing to do with Hinduism, you are bringing shame and dishonour to Hinduism.
Christians read The Bible, Muslims read The Koran, but the Hindus do not care to read their holy books. This is a shame.
November 22nd, 2006 at 10:26 am
DB you are unfair. You ask these boys to read the Rg Veda and 4,500 years of fear enters their hearts.
a) They don’t have one
b) They fear the fact that they don’t know the central book of their faith
c) The Brits did all they could to tell the Indians the book was complex and would drive you mad etc. They were happy to have us sing the Ramyne
d) This is THE holy book, don’t you know, it is the domain of the Bhramins LOL
e) Its in sanskrit and most us can’t understand it.
etc
so to help our flock. I give you (again) the Rg Veda (In English & Sanskrit)
The translator (Ralph Griffiths 1896 - Sanskrit Scholar) was banned from India. And the Brits buried the publication of Griffiths Work. They feared that the Rg Veda in the hands of the masses would crush the Brits and Moslems in one shot. The Rg Veda puts Mauryan (Aryan) Heart back in the Hindu! Enjoy this, it is my most Great Pleasure to promote this book to the Hindu’s
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rvi01.htm
Pndt Deeno Sharma
Veda Shakti
November 22nd, 2006 at 11:52 am
Yes, the translation of Rig Veda by Ralph Griffith, translations of Upanisad and Bhagwat Gita by Juan Mascaro are easy to read and are available from Amazon.co.uk
Hindus in Britain should have copies of these books.
November 22nd, 2006 at 2:08 pm
Deeno Sharma, if you are going to follow the Vedas only then show some consistency unlike the hypocrite Dipak Bose, the Vedas do not have exclusive Vaishnava worship either, you and him can found this cult of yours and see how many people you can get to join it.
DB is more concerned about what white people think about us, he is a typical example of a coconut and you are another example of a coconut.
The guy routinely peddles lies about Aurobindo and other Guru’s to suit his cultish viewpoint.
November 22nd, 2006 at 6:42 pm
OK Harish. Lets’ say DB does peddle xxxx. In fairness the guy has directed the prose generally asking us the reference the Rg Veda et alia. This is commenable. He is recommending our core reading. Many as you are well aware stick to quoting 2ndary scripts when the faith clearly states it is Our Duty to Study the Vedas.
In addition I do not beleive that his agenda is to portray a vision of this faith to satisfy “The Pink Northerners”. He does seem concerned that this faith has drifted from its core and ‘maybe’ accomodating practices which do not promote its true values
- Nobility
- Immortality - Hindus live forever
- Unbroken Heritage - “We have been this (Hindu) and always will be”
etc
Harish pls read the sacredtexts.com link to the Rg Veda. Have a quick scroll thru, just a few mantras / hymns. Then write back. You may see the picture the DB seems to be attempting to grab.
In all fairness. DB could say “you know what Forget this faith. Its periphery is so far from the core and its flock is reluctant to change. So why bother” It seems to me that DB is employed and a family man with all the commitments there, yet he still finds time for this discourse. This is greater than our reluctant “Central Command” The Pandits. Who seem curiuosly absent from Hinduvoice!
We are here because we are seeking the truth. Perhaps yours Park x & Proud Hindus’, fire will catalyst with mine and DBs’ calm to shake loose the truth.
ATB - Pndt Deeno Sharma
VEDA SHAKTI
November 22nd, 2006 at 8:57 pm
Deeno Sharma,
To tell you the truth I am not worried about the Pakis, missionaries or any outsiders. If piece of shit hindus like urself and Dipak Bose are purged. Then automatically most of are internal issues get resolved Once we are internally strong we can easily defeat the external threats.
November 22nd, 2006 at 10:43 pm
I have had enough of your assine conduct. Do not write what you can’t back up. If you want to back it up tell me where. Maybe you have never seen a Tru Hindu. Tell me where and I will meet you. Tell u what - The Classic Club Tooting?
You know something little fish. You spout off here cos u can’t take on the Pakis
Grow UP
November 22nd, 2006 at 11:09 pm
GENERAL NOTE
PARK X. I have reviewed your contributions (not) to this site. You seem pre-occupied with profanity, name calling etc. Heck you can’t can’t even spell your name hence the X.
Why don’t you say what is your agenda. Be A MAN. Not some skirt wearing, western security seeking psuedo Indian.
Of course you are not worried about the Pakis and misssionaries because you will never seek to address these issues. Nagaland, Mizoram, Kashmir fallen. And you are not worried! Of course you are not! Because only a Tru Hindu wouold worry about these matters.
Your objective seems constantly to fight and argue with Hindus. Do us all a favor Take Your Cross (Park X) head to your local Catholic Church where your allegiance seems to lie.
You - How does anyone know you are Hindu? With Me its easy I take my shirt off in the Gym and The Om is emblazoned on my arm with my sons name on it. That is Pride. On my other arm Is Indras Thundebolt with the Wings of Garud and my other childrens names. That is Pride In your Faith. My Next is to have the words “RG Veda” down my back on my backbone. That is Pride.
I do it also because Pakis aint allowed to “deface” their skin, it, in a small way shows the Freedom of The Aryawarth.
Here’s another fact. This site is to further the faith of the Aryawarth this includes the allegiance of our women. When they read your constant profanity they lose confidence in us and turn away. You by your singular action is causing Direct Harm to the Hindus. PARK IT UP! Park X
Veda Shakti!
November 23rd, 2006 at 4:32 am
Be a “man”? What make you think Park X is a man. He could just as well be a she.
November 23rd, 2006 at 8:39 am
“Deceitfulness, insolence and self-conceit, anger and harshness and ignorance— these belong to a man who is born for hell”
Sri Krishna in Bhagwat Gita, Ch 16 Verse 4
November 23rd, 2006 at 9:02 am
Pagan
Contribute something!
November 23rd, 2006 at 6:30 pm
Deeno Sharma…YOUR posts I have no problem with personally. Perhaps you have a better way of explaining things than DB, whos posts sound like utter subservience.
Hindus DO do some weird things..things I think that arent sactioned by the vedas and other holy books (though I know that the vedas are paramount)…BUT, DB, you need to phrase yourself better…by saying “we need to change and not worship monkey etc etc becuase we will get ridiculed by others”…you are only INVITING criticism and ire from the likes of myself and park x etc.
Park X…I understand your frustation, but just be wary of the way you conduct yourself when in a discussion/argument…noone, no Hindu, no Paki etc, will EVER listen to you if you start to rant and rave…thats EXACTLY what Pakis do..shout profanities when in a religious debate…but as I said, I see your frustation.
November 23rd, 2006 at 6:43 pm
AT LAST! I think we have seen Jesus. Well done Proud Hindu. Just when I was losing confidence you trun yp like the cavalry. At least you are astute enough to notice it is simply DB’s phraseology.
Proud Hindu you have looked at your troops and accounted for their failings whislt offering support. A Good Major!
Well done!
November 23rd, 2006 at 6:47 pm
OFFER - Mitra Jayanti drink @ The Classic (The Indian Pub) Tooting
I am in the UK. If all readers interested How about a drink at the club?
November 24th, 2006 at 3:26 am
Rig Veda says, that Vishnu is the king of all heavens. All Devas came after the ONE, Brahman.
Siva Puran says Siva is another name of Vishnu. Chandi Puran says, Devas prayed to Vishu, who has created Devi Durga.
November 27th, 2006 at 8:39 am
DEENOO SHARMA ! You may consider a teacher a Brahmin and thus your European school-teachers as ‘Honorary Brahmins’, but does Rig Veda say that? I an afraid, it does not. It describes how and from which part of His body He produced four varnas and various beings - even Rig, Sam and yajurveda were His creation.
DIPAK BOSE ! Gita too states four castes were created by Me (ch 4). By achieving full saatvikhood and getting to know Him, one becomes Brahm-Gyani and not Brahmin. By becoming one with Him (uniting with Him in Samadhi), one becomes a Brahm-Yogi, not a Brahmin. Many a great souls in the past (even from the lowest of our society) have realised Him. They are revered and respected by all Hindus as Brahm-gyanis or Bhagvad-Bhaktas; but they never declared they had become Brahmins. Bhakta Ravi Dass always addressed himself saying ‘Kahe Ravi Das khalaas chamaaraa’ in his hymns. They are sung even in our temples. Similar is the case with Tamil Bhaktas and saints Periyars and their hymns.
November 27th, 2006 at 7:16 pm
Dr Sanjeet
Bhramin in the context of the Rg Veda / Smriti etc is the benchmark. A Bhramin that murders a Dalit or denies him the full facilites of this faith, or with-holds the Vedas from the masses or has not read the Vedas. These are not Bhramin.
On the other hand we Have Vyasa & Valmiki. Both rogues (soryy ex-rogues) but producing full “Bhramin” intellect. We need to look at substance over form.
Yes we are born Bhramin. However, we can fail as Bhramins. A True Bhramin is one who has been born Bhramin, Read the Vedas and delivers knowledge / teaching.
As a “born Bhramin” I take this seriously and try to accomodate the three elements above.
Veda Shakti!
November 28th, 2006 at 6:55 am
It is difficult to spell Sanskrit words in English. Brahman ( or Bromhon) is the Supreme creator of all.
Brahmin ( or Bramhon) is a caste in Hindu society, used to engage in teaching and performing various rituals.
In English these words are Brahman and Brahmin. In actual Sanskrit pronounciations, it should be Bromhon and Bramhon respectively.
However, in Bhagwat Gita there is no caste. Sri Krishna said he has created four Varnas, i.e., four different types of people with different mixtures of the three Gunas; Sattik, Rajasik and Tamasik.
Varnas are not castes or colours. Varnas are characteristics, according to a number of Sanskrit scholars. There was no formal caste system in the Hindu religion as such. People could move from one Varna to another depending on their way of life.
Rig Veda Book 8, Verse 12
“Praise Indra… Him I invite with eulogy, best King, effective in the fight, strong for the gain of mighty spoil.
… Indra is priest and Risi, he is much invoked by many men,
and mighty by his mighty powers”
Here Indra is both a Brahmin( or Bramhon) and a Khattriya at the same time.
According to Rig Veda, Sudras are the feet of the Brahmon( or Bromhon), The Supreme.
Thus, Sudras have a very important role. Without feets, a person would be worthless. Similarly Rig Veda says, Brahmin is the head of the Brahmon. That may imply Brahmin is a profession of intellectuals.
November 28th, 2006 at 3:15 pm
Therefore my Point stands - Bhramin is by accomplishments! as per Vyasa & Valmiki
November 30th, 2006 at 9:32 am
Deenoo Sharmaji. A Brahmin who commits a murder, is an abominable, loathsome character. Any lapse of conduct deprives him from all the benefits of the Vedas (Manu 1:109). And, this is a grave sin. Conduct is the highest Dharma: ‘Acharah Paramo Dharmah’ (Ibid: 1:108). Such a person has to be banished from all religious acts, so say our holy Texts.
Word ‘Dalit’ is a mischievous introduction by the Missionaries for their own selfish ends to sow seeds of dissention in the Hindu society and thereby divide us. It is nowhere to be found in our vast literature and its use should be stopped forthwith by us. Their intention was to germinate a sense of degradation and lowliness among a chunk of our people - and they are succeeding.
The Creator has assigned different duties to us in accordance with our past Karmas. None is high or low as such – for they were assigned by Him, our Supreme Lord and Creator. All Jatis have sprung from the same body of the Supreme. (See: Srishti Sookta of the Vedas).
“Brahmin is one who has been born Brahmin, reads the Vedas and delivers knowledge/teaching”. Very correct. To this please add, ‘and tries to conduct himself in accordance with the conduct earmarked for him’.
However, your additive note of the 28th, “Brahmin is by accomplishments as per Vyas and Valmiki”, is not correct; and needs authoritative proof and evidence. Didn’t you yourself say, ‘Brahmin is by birth’?
November 30th, 2006 at 10:20 am
Dipak Bose Da. You are absolutely right. In Gita there is no mention of the word caste. It is Varna - created on the basis of different mixtures of three Gunas by the Creator, namely Sattva, Raja and Tamas. The Westerners mischievously introduced this Word in its place which has gained wide circulation by its use by them in their works and the anti-Hindu West-influenced media.
Your deposition that ‘there was no formal caste system in the Hindu religion as such; people could move from one Varna to another…’ needs authoritative scriptural evidence. Even the so-called European Scholars have written otherwise. Shall we quote?
You are right. According to the Rig Veda, Shudra represents the feet of the Brahm and have a very important role. Not only just important, but without them the very day-to-day existence of the Hindu Society would be put in jeopardy. They were alsocreated from there: Padbhyaam Shudro Ajaatyata. (Rig Veda, Yajur Veda etc.)
November 30th, 2006 at 10:26 am
Dr. Don’t you have patients to see to? Anyhow thanks for info. I like the term Dalits. I would like to work this word to restore pride in Being Dalit.
eg
1) Dalits - Final Block of the Aryawarth
should Bhramins, Chatri etc fall then aggressors to this faith will meet the final wall of Granite - The Dalit Nation and nothing will pass. They will be the final stand and recovery of the Aryawarth!
2) Our 21st Century Position
Bhramins - Standing Proud with the Dalits!
3) Dalits
Proud Power of the Aryawarth.
4) Dalit
Keeping the Aryawarth Flame Lit
etc
Shudra seems phonetically more dismissive than Dalit. Your feelings requested on said phonetics.
ATB - Gotta go. Customers are diminishing due to me sending so much time on this addictive website.
December 1st, 2006 at 10:41 am
Dr Ranjit Singh:
You said, “Your deposition that ‘there was no formal caste system in the Hindu religion as such; people could move from one Varna to another…’”
There are many instances where Khatriyas became Brahmins: Vishwamitra was a Khatriya became a Brahmin.
Vyas and Valmiki are also example of that.
Karna was a Sudra, became a Khatriya.
I have quoted one verse from Rig Veda, which describes Indra as both a Brahmin and a Khatriya at the same time.
Chanakya is another example: from Brahmin to Khatriya.
Gautam Buddha from Khatriya to Brahmin
December 1st, 2006 at 11:29 am
DB Karna was not Shudra blood. But if you are trying to demonstrate the movements between varnas then Karna is a good choice.
December 4th, 2006 at 9:45 am
Dipak Bose Da,
You have merely given a few names. It does not prove the point. I can bet you (and many others) have not tried to ratify from the sources. You too, like others, simply took the writers as genuine, and also sincere Hindus. But these people are agents and part of Anti-Hindu Missionary- Indian Secularist- Marxist axis that have joined hands to un-root Hinduism.
Vishvamittra, Vyas, Valmiki, Karana, Chanakya and Gautam Buddha are not recent figures that one could say something offhand. Save Chanakya and Buddha, rest are from an age millions of years before. Therefore, any statement shall have to prove it from History and literature of that period. We have read some so-called Swamis too write this fantasy in their books. But when brought face to face with contrary facts, they took permanent silence and did not respond.
Valmiki Maharshi has himself stated in Ramayana who he is and who were his father and grand father. In its last verse, he says, this has been composed by Praachetas (son of Maharshi Prachetas). Words therein are, ‘Krurtvan Praachetasah’. The latter was one of the first ten mental offsprings of Bhagwan Brahma. (Manu 1:35).
Vyas was the son of Maharshi Paraashar, son of Maharshi Shakti. The latter was the son of Maharshi Vashishtha, Bhagawan Ram’s preceptor. Muni Sukhdeva who related Bhagvatam to Maharaj Parikshit (grand son of Arjuna) on the banks of Mother Ganges was his son.
Karana was the first child of Kunti, hence eldest among the Pandavas. He was born through a boon given by Bhagawan Soorya just as Yudhishthir, Arjuna and Bhim were born through those of Dharmaraj, Indra, and Pawan Deva respectively. It can be confirmed from Mahabharatam.
Chanakya’s name was Vishnu Gupta. He came to be known as Chaanakya after the name of his father, Acharya Chanak. Till his last, he was teaching students - even though he was prime minister of a mighty empire. How was he a Kshatriya then?
Gautam Buddha, never said, nor any one has written that he became a Brahmin.
By taking to another Varna’s profession, Varna does not change. Did it change in the case of Guru Dronacharya or Guru Krupacharya? Bhishma Pitamah gave a very lengthy discourse extending till several days in which Bhagawan Sri Krishna was also a listener. Was he declared to have become a Brahmin? If one studied Gita attentively, this false notion will evaporate. Should you be interested, we’d give all the relevant verses with their meanings and implications.
As regards your quote, I had requested a complete reference number, preferably, an exact quote of it, to enable us to locate the verse and examine the veracity of its translation. (Its refs are in mandals, chapters and Mantras, or Ashtaks, chapters and vargas). Griffith and others are all Christians and Evangelists. Their translations are biased against our Dharma and the Hindus. Also, they cannot have a full, proper knowledge and grasp of the language, because, firstly it is not their language and secondly because it in the language of the Vedas which is not exact Sanskrit, but is Chhaandas.
December 4th, 2006 at 10:06 am
Dr - Your work is unacceptable. Griffiths “baised against Dharma”. This is a reckless statement and shows no appreciation of our faith. Griffths work gives Pride in The Aryawarth.
Had you read Griffiths sterling work on the RV you would appreciate this. As you clearly have not. You therefore do not understand the Central Book of our faith. With this lack of knowledge. Your work (in my opinion) must be set aside or regarded as unsafe. Only those possessed of Rg Vedic work should offer commentary. Duty of the Aryawarth - To study The Vedas. No study - No commentary.
It would be helpful if you would read Griffths work and write back on the “feeling” he drives home in this most worthy transcript.
Kind Regards
December 4th, 2006 at 10:10 pm
Dalip Bose: Please make the following correction in my earlier communication. Please read: Its refs are in ashtaks, sutras and mantras instead of ashtaks, chapters and mantras. Sorry for the typing mistake.
December 4th, 2006 at 10:17 pm
Deeno Sharmaji.
Your faith in Rig Veda’s authority and sanctity is commendable. The roots of our Dharma, brother, lie in the Vedas (‘Vedo Akhilo Dharma Moolam’). They are the highest supreme authority in Dharma (‘Paramam Pramaanam’). It is out of them that the plant and fruit of Dharma grow out. Dharma Shastras, Itehas and Purana granthas are their expositions. Without their aid, the deep and mysterious disguised meanings cannot be revealed.
Vedas do not say, ‘there are many paths’. According to them, there is one and only one path, and it is that of the Vedas. Karma, Bhakti and Gyan are the three vehicles, three different modes of transport for travel on it.
Cases of attacks and fights are a post independence phenomenon unknown earlier. The junior castes considered the seniors as their elders and uncles, and they, in turn, treated them like their loved children. By the missionary propaganda and machinations of the unscrupulous Indian politicians to divide and shatter Hindu society, they have generated a wave of indignation in the hearts of the former. Almost invariably, these cases are politically motivated, politically orchestrated to earn dividends at the polls. They have lived as our children and shall continue to do so provided the mischievous dirty politicians keep their sinister hands off.
Soma is not wine. This is a baselessly false propaganda of the Western writers. Soma is a plant whose extracted juice is offered to gods in Soma Yaaga, a Veda-prescribed Yagna.
You say, ‘not eating cow is unstated in Rig Veda’. It is not true. You have been taken in and misled by the Western mis-propaganda. It started after 1857 War of Independence (miscalled Indian Mutiny). When Hindu soldiers (sepoys – hence the name sepoy-mutiny) learnt that the cartridges supplied to them were greased with cow-fat, they refused to use them and revolted. The British realised that Hindu, who constituted 90% of the populace, regarded cow as their goddess, and could sacrifice their lives to safeguard her. They, therefore, decided to uproot this belief from their hearts so that they could rule safely. This literature followed as a result of that. A book, ‘Beef Eating in Ancient India’, was got published from Kolkata (then Calcutta) in the name of Raja Rajendrapal Mitra in 1875. Then PV Kane, an advocate of Mumbai (Bombay then) high court’s ‘History of Dharmashastras’ in five volumes and then AB Shah, Lecturer in Mathematics, Pune (Poona) University’s ‘Cow Slaughter – Horn of a Dilemma’ were got published. Baseless propaganda that beef eating was prevalent in ancient India is their concocted non-sense. We should not be misled by it.
You say, ‘it is unstated in RV’. But, we give two references from it which prove on the contrary. 1. Mata Rudraanaam….Ma Gaam Aditim Vadhishtha (8:102:15). 2. Aghnya Iti Gavaam… (10:87:6).
Hindu scholars have always challenged these West-tutored self-styled scholars for debate, but they have never come forth. Hindus are always ready for it. We do not have the practice of passing ‘Fatwas’. Hence such blasphemies persist – and persist unchecked. For you, we say, please believe us. This is an ill intentioned missionary-Secular-Marxist Communist mis-propaganda unworthy of Hindu belief.
December 5th, 2006 at 12:05 am
Dr Thank you for your comments. RV 8:102:15 cannot locate it, there doesn’t seem to be a 15. Actually finishes at 14. Pls forward the full 8:102 as you read it. Book 10 as many agree has been much Bhraminised to protect their position as many know. Believe me I am a Bhramin and all my family I know how we wrestle to protect our (frequently weak) position. But rather than rely on these issues let’s take the intelligent approach.
Forensics. Cow as food. The great Hindu issue, the great crime, the taboo. Something with such deep sentiments seems very quiet (unmentioned pending your response) in the RV. It is not right when the RV labors on soma (all of book nine - over 1200 lines). Basic math does not correlate. They had enough books with the RV to deal with this matter. Yet they do not. The answer must be, because its not important.
Forensics - The Brits. Why would they want to free up another food & clothing for the Hindus? Their objective was to keep us subdued. Shackled. What better way to shackle a man than four times a day at the dinner table. They never promoted beef eating - The Portugese did. Tell me they ridiculed our “Holy Cow” issue to mock us as a poor and primitive faith. You have a cow eating population (The Brits) ruling half this earth. Yet those who have paid homage it said cow have suffered Genocide at the hands of Mahmud. Had their land ruled by Sultans (Beef eaters) and now the Brits (beef eaters) It doesn’t add up that the cow is holy or should not be eaten. Hell I am arguing bout food. This is ridiculous. If religion was brought to the kitchen you can shackle people. Nahee Nahee. Grande Diablo. It doesn’t make sense. eat the cow.
Now let’s focus on the true issues of this faith. eg. re-incarnation this is unique and if focused on would earn volumes for this earth.
The Brits “Hindus would die for the cow”. No Dr. Hindus did not. The Brits ate well on Indian cows. This is all wrong. The faith of the Aryawarth in falling into the kitchen. The cow ain’t holy. What is important is that the Aryawarth remain Aryawarth - Serve well This world for it is your next home. Care for its peoples and remove absurdities. Forget the cow. Its taking up too much of Hindu creative time.
In fact cows becoming revered may the 50% contributor to the desalinization and death of Harappa & Mohenjdaro. I come from a cattle farming family. Wherever a cow walks its rips the ground up leaving it free of ground cover and then its erodes. Sheep are different they areate the ground bringing nore ground cover.
The cow issue has made us so laughable. The Indian Revolution you mention. We would kill our own - even Bhramins for the British. Yet give us cow fat and we refuse, not on the grounds of Bhraminicide (The Highest dishonor) but because of a cow. This is not the way of the Vedas. No Sir. I cannot take this. We insult humans, cognitive and creative creatures.
Soma you fail to inform - What plant is it? It is my personal quest to find this answer. It is central to our faith. Not Milk n Honey Panchamrit.
Please forgive my passion. My quest is simply to find the core of this Great Faith and to remove dire appendages. I thank you also for the time you have spent debating with me.
Veda Shakti!
I use this because Namaste, Hariaum, Pranaam etc to me is ‘almost’ subserviant. I have chosen Veda Shakti after I found the Spirit of The Indian in the Rg Veda. When the Aryawarth finds his lost heart he will be reading from the pages of the Rg Veda and the earth will breathe again.
Veda Shakti.
sorry so long. I love this faith. When I die I want to part of it again. I love it down here!
December 5th, 2006 at 8:13 am
Dr.Ranjit Singh:
You are correct about many points. Vyas and Valmiki can be Brahmin by birth, I accept.
My point was that Varna is a characteristics which one can cultivate by following the ways prescribed in the Bhagwat Gita. Caste by birth is not Varna.
I guess that true Hinduism used to exist in the Satya Yoga, then it became corrupted. As a result Varna by birth came about.
According to Gautam Buddha, (in Dharmapada, 402-422), an Aryan is one who follows the Aryan Eightfold path and a Brahmin is one who attains the stage of ‘Arahant’ or supreme knowledge. “In whom there exist both truth and righteousness, pure is he, a Brahmin is he. He is free from impediments, free from clinging” (Dharmapada, 393-396).
December 5th, 2006 at 8:19 am
Dr.Ranjit Singh:
Rajendralal Mitra who was quoted by D.N.Jha in his book Beef Eating Aryans was a Christian, and he made false quotations from Rig Veda.
There is no indication that ancient Hindus used to eat beef.
Rajendralal Mitra, quoted by D.N.Jha, wrongly interpreted a number of verses which says, “Indra dressed up the bulls”, as Indra has prepared the bulls for eating. Because in English dressed up can be used in two different meaning, just dresing up or preparing the food.
Thee are many verses which says “Indra is the protector of the cows, which no body may kill”
December 7th, 2006 at 9:05 am
Dipak Bose Da:
Varna, you say, is ‘characteristics which one can cultivate by following the ways prescribed in the Bhgavat Gita. Caste by birth is not Varna’.
Varna is not - and it CANNOT be - characteristics, neither according to Grammarians nor as per Vedic Shastras. ‘Characteristic’ means a distinctive feature or quality, and Varna is ‘each of the four Hindu castes’ (Oxford Conc.). Caste according to the same is ‘any of the Hindu hereditary classes, distinguished by relative degrees of purity or pollution, …(and who) follow the same profession’. Vachaspatyam, the most exhaustive Sanskrit dictionary (VIII vols.) defines it as, Braahman aadi Jatau; Varno Dwij Aadau Shuklaadau.
Both the words, Caste as well as, Varna signify ‘by birth’. Gita, you will agree, has clearly stated that Chatur Varnas were created by Me (Chaturvarnyam Maya Srshtam… 4:13). Word ‘Jati’, i.e. caste, has also been mentioned therein by Sri Bhagawan - Utsaadyante Jaati Dharmaah Kul Dharmaasch Shaashvataah (1:43).
Jaati cannot be anything but from birth, because its origin is from Sanskrit Dhatu’ (root) ‘Jani Praadurbhaave. That is, one that is from birth or along with birth. It cannot mean anything but what is by birth or from birth. Every Jaati’s Karmas, duties too have been divided according to their respective birth (Gita 18:41). Duties born thus (by birth) are not to be abandoned even if they appeared as evil or not good: Sahjam Karma Kaunteya S-Dosham Api Na Tyajet (18:48). Two more shlokas can be cited in this respect: Kaaranam Gun Sango-sya Sad Asad Yoni Janmsu (16:21) and, Aasureem Yonim Aapanna Moodhaa Janmani Janmani (16:20). Gita is an Upanishad, you will agree, since at the end of every chapter we find the words ‘Gitaasu Upanishatsu’.
‘I guess true Hinduism used to exist in the Satya Yuga….’, you wrote further. Now, what is this true and untrue Hinduism? You have yourself stated that Hinduism is as it is prescribed in the Shastras. Hindus can be true and untrue, but not Dharma, which is eternal – Shaashvatah Sanaatanah. Arjuna talked of Sanatan Kul Dharmas in 1:40, didn’t he? For every action of his, a Hindu ought to act as per the dictates of the Shastras, so dictate the Scritpures. For the present, we show it from Gita: Tasmaat Shastram Pramaanam Te (16:23-24).
Now, in Satya Yuga were there no Hindus? Was there no Dharma? Our question is, how can there be Srshti and yet there be no Dharmas? If there were Manavas (humans), Manav Dharma ought to have been there, because Dharma is created simultaneously with Srshti.
The ‘offspring of Manu’ is called Manav – Manoh Apatyam Maanavaah (Nirukta, Dictionary dealing with Vedic etymology). Vedas also say the same. Manush Pita (Rig. 1:80:16); Manurojeye Pita (1:114:2); Manur nrinita Pita Nasta (2:33:13).
He was the first ruler. Brahmaji ‘anointed’ him as the King with Ayodhya as his capital. His words have been declared ‘Bheshajam’, panacea, for all kinds of human ills: Yad Vai Kinch Manuravadat Tad Bheshajam (Kr Yajurveda Taitt. Sam 11:5:9); Yad Kinch Manuravadat Tad Bheshajam Bheshajataayaah (Taandya Br.23:16:7 & Chhand Br).
Bhagawan Brahma divided himself into two, male and female, and thus was produced Manu. So, Manu was the first creation of the Creator. He, in turn, produced ten Prajapati Rishis and they all varieties of living beings. Now, when could there be that Satya Yuga when Dharma wasn’t present – and, would it be Satya Yuga by any means? As Brahmaji taught Dharma-Adharma to Manu Bhagawan himself, so did he teach it to the ten Prajapatis (Rishis). What he taught is known as Manu Smriti. (Manu Smriti 1:32-40; 1:58)
He was created in the very beginning of Satya-yuga (Vishnu Smriti 3:2:47).
After Satya Yuga, Hinduism…. Became corrupted. As a result Varna by birth came about’. You yourself stated that it was your guess. Now, do Hindus decide (and discuss) their Dharma on mere guesswork? Followers of a Dharma that boast of the largest and the most extensive and exhaustive Dharmic literature should be turning to guesswork while discussing the basic-most question of creation, isn’t it strange?
Another testimony, that Varnas were created from Brahm in the beginning of Creation, can be cited from Gita: Braahmanaas Ten Vedaasch Yagyaasch Vihitaah Pura (17:23). The following are from the Shrutis (Vedas): Brahm (Braahmanaah) Asrijayat (Yajurveda 14:28);Braahmo Jagye Prathamah (4:2:6:1); Bhootaanaam Brahma Prathamah Ut Jagya Tenaarhati Brahmanaa Spardhitum Kah (Atharva 15:3:21); Tad Ya Ih Ramaneeya-charna…. (Chhandogya Up.5:10:7), and Athetyabhya-manthat-s Mukhat-ch…. (Brihad Aaranyak Up. 1:4:6).
Hope, we have been able to put our point properly and substantiate it.
As regards definition of Arya given in Dhammapad, we have to submit, definition of the word different in Hindu Dharma, Jainism and Baudhism, the latter two non-Vedics. They cannot be similar – and the difference cannot be taken into account in our discussion. We may however say, that Sri Buddha did not say in his sermons that Brahmins were not by birth.
Regards.
December 7th, 2006 at 10:31 am
“Varna is ‘each of the four Hindu castes’ (Oxford Conc.)”
Encyclopedia Britannica also says that Siva is the God of Destruction. Or Kali is the Goddess of Death. Do you believe that? It is better to consult Sanskrit scholars in India, which I did as my knowledge of Sanskrit is not very great.
Varna is not Caste in the Sanskrit language. It is not colour either, but attributes.
Yes, Krishna said Varnas are created by me or The Brahman, that is correct. However, he never said that a son of a Brahmin would be a Brahmin, there is no verse in Bhagwat Gota supporting that.
The word Caste came from the Portuguese language, it has no equivalent in Sanskrit. British has distorted everything in India by putting wrong translations and wrong meaning.
The Verse 41 of Ch 18 in Bhagwat Gita says, ” The works of Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaisyas and Sudras are different, in harmony with the three powers of their born nature”
However, it means different people are born with different types of nature. Son may have different nature from a father. Thus son of a Brahmin can very well be a born with the nature of a Sudra. Son of Mahatma Gandhi was a drank, used to go to the prostitutes, he was born with a very different nature. This is the meaning of this verse.
The verse 48 of Ch 18 says, ” A man should not abandon his work, even if he cannot achieve it in full perfection. Because in all work there may be imperfection even as in all fire there is smoke”.
It does not say a man will follow his father’s work, but if you please read the verses prior to the verse 48, it says, a man attains perfection when his work is worship of God. A man follows his born nature and achieve perfection whatever may be the work. It does not suggest any Jati or Caste.
According to Hindu tradition and scriptures, due to Manu Smriti not being a part of Shruti literature i.e., revealed knowledge, it cannot be held authoritative, and though a Smriti might be knowledgeable, can be subject to bias and whatever in Smriti is opposed by shruti, it can be rejected according to Hindu scriptures including Manu Smriti as well.
When it comes to stance of hereditary caste system, “As the son of Shudra can attain the rank of a Brahmin, the son of Brahmin can attain rank of a shudra. Even so with him who is born of a Vaishya or a Kshatriya” ( Manu Smriti, X: 65) The above verse is believed to sanction support for vocational non-hereditary caste system.
There is a theory ( I do not know whether it is correct or not) that Manusmriti was written by a sage named Brigu during the times of Pushyamitra, the King of Magadh in 2nd century AD, who had committed mass-murder of the Buddhists.
Many Hindus allege that the colonial rulers, like Robert Clive and Lord Macaulay, found it a useful tool to exploit and suppress Hindus and Hinduism.British resurrected the Manusmriti and used it to frame the “Hindu Civil Code”. It is believed that ‘Dwija’(twice-born) are actually Aryans,