Are Hindu widows supposed to burn themselves?
“Why is it that Hindu women have to burn themselves when their husbands die?”
This question was relayed to the Hindu speaker at an event in Brighton University. The speaker smiled and asked the largely Hindu audience if they had actually heard of any woman amongst their family or friends who had burnt herself when her husband died, or had even been encouraged to do so? The crowd, of course, answered in the negative.
July 24th, 2006 at 12:44 pm
Dear Sir,
Thanks for your nice speech regarding the sati tradition with historical facts. However, if you read Mahabharat, When King Pandu (Father of pandavas) died and his 2nd wife Madri burnt herself. Can you please explain me the reason behind this act?
Thanks & Regards,
Dr. Ramakrishna.
July 25th, 2006 at 4:19 pm
In the Mahabharata, Madri, the second wife of Pandu, immolates herself. She holds herself responsible for the death of her husband, who had been cursed with death if he ever had intercourse. He died while performing the forbidden act with Madri, who blamed herself for not having rejected his advances, although she was well aware of the curse. Pandu’s other wife Kunti didnt follow suit yet she is glorified. It is notable that in the Ramayana, Tara, in her grief at the death of husband Vali, wished to commit sati. Hanuman, Rama, and the dying Vali dissuade her and she finally does not immolate herself.
At the end of the day suicide is strictly forbidden in the Vedas. Medhatithi a 13th century commentator on the Vedas confirms this.
July 25th, 2006 at 7:39 pm
Certainly ’sati’ (truly unfortunate that such a despicable act is given such a virtuous name) has no Hindu sanction. Equally, it is true that it has always been an isolated event, rather than a communal, societal or mainstream practice (stand fast ‘jauhar’). However, I have certainly in my limited experience come across two cases of it in the modern-day rural Indian context. I wonder if any here may be aware of any work that is being done to tackle this issue.
July 26th, 2006 at 3:45 pm
Though I cannot disagree with the statement made on Satis by the speaker and the critics as I have not researched the question.
However, the Government of India by enacting a legisltation prohibited the barbaric practce. Indian Penal Code has provisions to deal with the perperators as well as aiders and abbetors. Despite these sanctions a few years ago in Rajasthan a woman was put on her husband’s pyre much against her wish by the husband’s kith and kin and the villagers encouraged it. The physician who doused her absconded. The authorities turned a blind eye. There was a big hue and cry in the national and provincial print and voice media. Women pressure groups raised the issue with the authorities but of no result. The irony is the poor victim who became a Sati is worshipped. While recently travelling in Bihar, Jharkhand and Orissa I found that there in Hindu temples behind the dieities werea number of monuments of unfortunate Satis and people there worship them. In present day and in Modern India you find this unfortunate evidence. Could any one give explanation for inclusion of glorification of Satis symbols in the Hindu temples. The examples of Rama, Krishna and Hunuman are mere precedents of the past or a line of defence when anyone is confronted with the question.
Omkar Nath Channan
July 26th, 2006 at 6:42 pm
Nice speach about Sati .As per my knowledge Self murder( Atama Hatya)
is grave sin which never be compensate by any Japa, Tapa or other method.
July 28th, 2006 at 2:53 pm
To Omkar
There are lots of temples in India, several million. That a few of them worship ’satis’ cannot indict Hinduism as a whole, against the fact that most Hindus do not aprove of sati, and all Hindu teachings go against it.
The fact that there was such large media coverage of ONE incident of Sati several years ago in Rajastan tells us straight away that it is very uncommon.
The fact is sati is not an issue anymore, and is not even worth tackling (except to stop people using it to defame Hinduism). A much bigger issue nowadays that must be tackled, is female foetacide in placed like Punjab, Rajasthan and Haryana. That is something that social groups have gotta tackle asap. There are only 850 females per thousand males in these areas!
July 28th, 2006 at 9:12 pm
There are numerous stories of women who prostituted themselves for Israel and are glorified for it in the Bible.
).
The value of women is a great problem in all of our societies - past and current. So many reformers have tried and failed. If humans are dumb enough to continue this trend the value of women will sudenly rise when the sons aren’t having children on their own.
One could hope this is a transitional problem but developed countried don’t seem to do much of a better job.
But it is the eternal quest to seek greater justice in the world and we keep trying to make the inequity less - education is the mainstay but at least for now that will have to come from the mothers. The other side will be when men are allowed to be home with the kids (teaching them) while mom is working. Of course the goal will be parents raise kids and male and female work as one spiritual unit. (I’m not sure if that’s serious or a joke
hariaum
July 28th, 2006 at 11:26 pm
In response to Meena:
The fact that I have personally come across two instances of ’sati’ suggests to me that it is nowhere near uncommon enough - I’m sure that if I in my limited time have come across two cases, those who work in the villages and tribal areas regularly come across far more cases. Incidentally, lack of media coverage does not necessarily equal rarity - it may equally well be simply down to lack of media interest, for whatever reason.
In addition, it is all very well to say that it is uncommon, but I doubt whether that is much consolation to the poor woman who lies strapped down to the funeral pyre, being slowly burnt alive.
Finally, I agree there are much bigger problems that need to be dealt with, but that doesn’t mean that the smaller issues should be completely ignored.
July 29th, 2006 at 2:21 am
“Strapped down to the funeral pyre” - what have you been reading? I shouldn’t even have to comment on such rubbish, ‘ strapped down’! Sheesh. You should educate yourself.
Regarding your other point, I subscribe to an Indian feminist journal, Manushi, and it regularly highlights all women’s issues. Several papers in there say that Sati is over hyped, and that if or whenever it does happen, no matter where it is, there is a media frenzy. These are people who are full time researchers in the field.
July 29th, 2006 at 1:22 pm
Meena, you appear to be an intelligent, sensible person, so I assume that your words are merely designed to portray your shock rather than meant as personal insult, which they otherwise could appear to be.
The two instances I mentioned that I have come across, one of which was the case that I hinted at in that description are cases that I came across during the course of my work in rural India, and not some story I read in some journal with its own agenda, howsoever lofty its claimed ideals. Whilst working in India and other parts of the world, I have regularly come across many ‘full time researchers in the field’ and seen their way of working, and whilst some of them are indeed doing highly commendable work, the accolade in itself I am afraid appears to mean very little.
I agree entirely, it is important to educate oneself. Of course, we all have our own individual learning styles that work best for us; I have found over the years that I learn far better from direct experience than sitting and reading books and journals.
July 29th, 2006 at 1:37 pm
Sati is way overhyped, it takes place once every few years, in a country of billion people there are bound to be such things and plus the self styled saviours of women don’t seem to take into account that the woman may herself be doing it voluntarily (if not sati then she will probably committ suicide by some other method). There are more important issues Hindus are better off concentrating on such as female infanticide.
July 29th, 2006 at 1:49 pm
The reason why I wrote in that way is because your innappropriate graphical style of writing made it sound like the woman is strapped down. by others in sati. Which anybody should know, is not the case.
At the end of the day, I will snap at people who write in a way that promotes the self-flaggelating tendency amongst Hindus (a tendency which is so widespread that it puts many people I have known off even studying Hindu philosophy). The fact is, and this should be emphasised, it is very rare, and against Hindu teachings.
July 30th, 2006 at 5:27 pm
Meena, I am glad to see your passion for the issues you believe in, and I certainly agree that excessive self-hatred is not particularly encouraging to young Hindus looking at their community. Equally, however, I feel it unlikely that firing personal insults at people would be any more encouraging to those people you mention.
I agree that Sati is very uncommon, as I said above; however, that does not mean that it should be completely ignored. A parallel might be drawn with certain rare diseases in Britain. Though they are extremely rare, research and active efforts still continue to find lasting treatments and even cures for them, and they are followed up appropriately should they occur. In the same way, I agre that far more efforts should be made for issues like female infanticide/foeticide, etc. that are vastly more prevalent, but the rarer issues are still things that need to be borne in mind and addressed appropriately.
Returning to my ‘inappropriate graphical style of writing’, again I reiterate, the case I hinted at with that description was a real-life case that I personally came across during my own work in rural India. It doesn’t happen that way? Tell that to her poor parents who have no tears left to cry. (Yes, that last sentence was my graphical style of writing - I apologise if it offended anyone’s sensibilities..)
July 30th, 2006 at 9:37 pm
I thought Sati by women en masse was done when a town fell to muslim invaders, in order for the womens honour to be protected.
July 30th, 2006 at 10:10 pm
^^^ That is true, but the practice is called Jauhar (I think) rather than Sati.
Regarding the previous exchange between Meena and Satya, I definately agree that the self-hating tendency of Hindus that blowing out of proportion of things like Sati is probably the biggest problematic tendency amongst Hindus in western countries. In fact, this tendency even prevents real solutions and progress, because it prevents people even wanting to solve problems within the framework of Hindu dharma. However, with regards to any individual victims of the custom, however rare, we should always extend our fullest heartfelt sympathy for any human suffering that takes place like this.
July 31st, 2006 at 4:31 pm
You’re all wonderful.
Anecdotes are very important. Statistical reasoning is also very important. When one individual is killed, it is a crime and needs full investigation and execution of justice - a very complicated but important word. When an idea of killing is sustained it becomes a statistical event an needs a system wide approach.
We need kings (governments) with the will to go after wrong doers and we need dharma (religious teachings) that go after wrong. We need you both.
Hariaum.
August 2nd, 2006 at 11:38 pm
The speaker is perfectly right about JAUHAR. But this was a collective self immolation practised not as a religious rite as has been made out to be but rather an act of interwoven with military practices of specific warlike people. Jauhar was confined only to Rajputs many of whom descended from Scyths and these are known to have such practice also. Certain German tribes too are known to deny the falling of their women to the enemy. It is a purely honour related practice not connected in general sense to the Indian subcontinent or Hinduism
August 3rd, 2006 at 1:38 pm
“Jauhar was confined only to Rajputs many of whom descended from Scyths and these are known to have such practice also.”
A correction, while Jauhar was predominantly done by Rajputs, there were instances of others doing it, for example the wife of Dahir Sen and her female attendants immolated themselves when Muhammad Bin Qasim invaded and captured Sindh.
Nextly not all Rajput descend from Scythians, a majority of the clans are native to India, this theory of Rajputs all descending from Scythians were later concocted by Colonial authors like Cunningham (kind of like a second AIT).
August 24th, 2006 at 7:45 am
To N. Parashar (on his of the25th July)
You are right brother, Madari’s Sati-hood is described in detail in Mahabharatta. For further information sought by Sri Ramakrishna T., we’d request him to go through chapter 124 of the Aadi Parva of Mahabharattam. His, as well as, of many other readers many a query and doubt shall be laid to rest fully.
August 10th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
The fact that the Rg-Veda (10.18.8) tells a widow to desist from committing sati, obviously means that the practice existed. It is just as well that this creates scriptural sanction against the practice, but it is simply untrue to deny that this was a Hindu practice. It goes back to Proto-Indo-European times (at least 4,000 years before the first Islamic invasion) and is attested among Celts and Germanics as well; as well as outside the Indo-European world, e.g. among the Mongols before the Third Dalai Lama abolished it there. As others have already argued, the practice is mentioned in the Ramayana and the Mahabhrata, though clearly very minoritarian and never recommended by figures of authirty such as Krishna. Sati was practised by a number of widows and concubines on the funeral pyres of Shivaji and Ranjit Singh. I don’t mind saying that my own Celtic and Germanic ancestors practised sati (as well as human sacrifice), simply because that’s a fact. i don’t think Hindus have anything to gain from denying sati in their own history. it should be enough that they have scriptural sanction against it, and that Hindu authorities (several Maratha rulers, Ram Mohan Roy) took the initiative to abolish it.
August 11th, 2008 at 10:36 am
There is also a caste angle to the sati question. All the known cases of sati took place in Kshatriya or quasi-Kshatriya circles. The Rg-Veda, which dissuades a widow from committing sati, is, so to speak, a proto-Brahmanical text. Different castes had different ethical sensibilities. Thus, Brahmanical texts sternly forbid abortion, pre- or post-natal. All the same, many castes have practised post-natal abortion or infanticide, esp. on girls, and still do so today in the pre-natal stage after screening for the foetus’ gender. Wealthy communities like the Sikhs and most of all the Jains, bankers and jewellers who can easily afford a fat dowry for a handful of daughters, are the worst sinners and now have the lowest gender ratio among their newborn. Well-meaning Hindu reformists try to turn the tide and quote the anti-abortion ordinances from “Hindu” scriptures, unmindful of the fact that secularists and neo-Ambedkarites always lambast these as merely “Brahmanical”. Well, that same casteist put-down was historically subscribed to by a number of non-Brahmin castes who ignored these rules and went ahead with their elimination of female babies. Likewise, the scriptural disapproval of sati is indeed genuine, both in the Rg-Veda and the Ramayana (where Tara is dissuaded from sati, not forbidden), but some castes with their much-touted caste autonomy felt justified in ignoring these Brahmanical pieties and went ahead with committing sati, in conformity with their own more feroic traditions.
August 11th, 2008 at 7:08 pm
The article needs wide circulaton
1. How did Indian Lumanaries like Rajaram Mohan Roy lend his name when this practice was not very commonplace
2. statistics do indicate that it was not common place but which community persisted in the practice is not to well documented
August 12th, 2008 at 12:45 pm
kudos to the author who presented the practice of Suttee in the proper perspective. Even in Mahabharatha, Kunti did not practise Sattee though her co-wives chose to die when Pandu died. The practice as the author has rightly pointed out came into vogue in some part of India, on account of fear of molestation and loss of honour by the invading or marauding foreign forces. It is not in the vedas or sastras ordaining a wife to commit suicide on the death of her husband.
August 12th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
nice article.
can we have the exact veda passages that cite why sati would be illegal? it’s nice to be able to reference the exact verses when debating people who don’t know what they’re talking about (like ignorant christians or self hating hindus)
August 12th, 2008 at 9:24 pm
If some woman was tied down then that is murder and not sati.
Where did Sataya get this nonsense idea that being tied down is sati.
Thats what the villagers would have you believe and you an intelligent man like you fell hook line and sinker.
You ought to go back to that village and file a police investigation, wife beating or brutality by the Inlaws.
Now that is a real issue and not some imaginary sati.
Have you considered suicide at times of extreme stress? That would certainly explain the rare cases reported here and there. In a huge territory and population of India a few cases is considered rare and who knows whether its suicide or murder?
If Sati was such a big issue we would have no women left in India by now.
They would rebel and not get married.
Perhaps that may have been the idea behind brainwashing by the Brits to those dumb Indians making them believe that Sati was something holy.
Perhaps some villagers did fall for that.
The fact remains that Sati is some foreign idea to destroy a religion.
August 12th, 2008 at 10:06 pm
Koenraad Elst writes
“The fact that the Rg-Veda (10.18.8) tells a widow to desist from committing sati, obviously means that the practice existed.”
You are misinterpreting this quote just like the early Christian missionaries in India.
These are mere advice for women to follow and not instructions that counter any form of ‘sati’.
The quote is translated as
imA nArIravidhavAH supatnIrA~njanena sarpishhA sa.m vishantu.
anashravo.anamIvAH suratnA A rohantu janayo yonimagre..##Rg. 10.18.7 ##
Let these women, who are not windows, and have noble husbands, adorn themselves with fragrant cosmetics, paints and perfumes. Let women decorated with precious jewels be without tears and free from sorrow; let them move first to their homes. Rg. 10.18.7
udIrshhva nAryabhi jIvaloka.m gatAsum etam upasheshha ehi.
hasta grAbhasya didhishhoshhas taveda.m patyur janitvam abhi sa.m babhUtha ..
## Rg. 10.8.8 ##
Rise, O woman, rise; accept now as your caretaker ( or as new mate) someone among the living ones. The person with whom you have been living all these days is now dead. May you (through this mate) beget children for yourself and for your late husband who took you by the hand. (or for this new mate, if he so desires) and be happy and rejoicing.
Rg. 10.18.8
August 12th, 2008 at 10:09 pm
One final passage I would like to add by Chanchal Malvinas that the article did not cover is the meaning of the word ‘SATI’.
‘Sati’ actually is a very pure word in Hinduism; it represents the purest form of woman; the purity that has tremendous power. The word refers to the natural power of a woman which she develops by the virtue of her truthfulness towards her husband. This truthfulness relates to so many aspects of the women and just not physical relationship. One, her thinking do not go beyond her husband, for the reason she regards the Husband nearly as God. Second, she acts to make sure that her actions in no way cause any damage or insult to her husband in any manner. In case, the woman finds contradicting ideology, she discusses it out with her Husband and her suggestions are greeted, recognized and honored. This still happens in Hindu family, in most of the cases. Instead of understanding the natural realization of women power by Hindus, unnecessary and meaningless conclusions are made about its myth and related to criminal incidences.
August 13th, 2008 at 8:59 am
If it aint physical genocide by the muslims, it is a mental genocide by the british! We have been asaulted on all fronts.
-Muski
August 14th, 2008 at 9:47 am
No, sati was neither physical genocide by the Muslims nor mental genocide by the British, whose own pre-Christian ancestors had practised sati just like the Hindus had. Sati is an ancient custom among some nations including the Proto-Indo-Europeans (who according to the Aryan non-invasion theory lived in India) and their North-European as well as Hindu descendants. Whereas the Bible and Homer do not mention sati, the Mahabharata (Madri) and the Ramayana (Tara) do. They give no hint at all that this practice was new or foreign. There is also a Greek report about an Indian general in the Achaemenid Iranian army who gets cremated and whose two widowed wives fight for the honour of being the sati. Yes, like Tara, they were eager to be the sati, for it was a great honour to face death like that.
That is one of the most problematic aspects of the fact of sati: that it was voluntary. The first British reports on the matter also acknwoledged this and correctly referred to the practice as “widows’ self-immolation”. Modern secularists who preach multi this and multi that get shell-shocked when they are confronted with something actually different from their own one-dimensional lifestyle, such as a different concept of death, and of marital love. If Brahmanical sources frowned upon sati, it was not because sati was involuntary, for then it would have simply been murder, which the law already provided against, but because it was wrong to take such a momentous decision in the midst of an emotional crisis (cremation has to take place within 24 hours of death), and because it would hurt the couple’s children. But the Kshatriya and would-be-Kshatriya castes thought that honour was worth this price.
At any rate, Hindus are cutting a sorry figure if they deny this chapter of their history or try to pass the blame to Muslims or other outsiders. The Muslim conquests did have an impact upon Hindu marriage, such as triggering a near-generalization of child marriage and moving the time for the wedding ceremony to midnight; and they did provoke instances of jauhar, collective suicide by fire of a whole clan’s women (widows and virgins not excluded). But this was a wholly different thing than sati, which predates Islam by millennia.
You also have nothing to gain by outdoing yourself in quasi-secularist fuming indignation, such as by calling sati “despicable”. As if you try to exorcize from yourself something you know is part of you or at least of your history. Be satisfied that Hinduism per se does not impose or prescrivbe sati, contrary to what ignorant or malicious people claim; but accept that in its capacious bosom with all its variegated customs, Hinduism did include this little variety of loyalty unto death too. Those were different times, a different culture, a different view of death, and it is childish to get worked up over strange customs that are no problem to you because they belong to history,– albeit your own history.
August 14th, 2008 at 8:36 pm
Dear Koenraad, whilst I admire your intellectualism, I think it is imperative not to go off the point.
A lot of the world genuinely believe that HINDUISM tells women that it is good to go and kill themselves when the husband dies. As you have pointed out this is quite untrue. The truth is, that the practice has existed in some Hindu communities, but was a self-existing custom rather than a scripturally sanctioned practice enjoined upon all Hindus. For every Hindu widow who committed Sati, there were many many more who didn’t and never felt obliged to.
Such misconceptions ARE mischevious propaganda spread by some interested parties to gain one over Hinduism in the contest of religions.
For Hindus to wish to point this out is NOT wrong, or overly defensive, or “trying to rewrite our history”. The damage that such misconceptions do to young Hindus’ perception of their own religion, especially girls is immeasurable.
August 14th, 2008 at 10:02 pm
Koenraad Elst
“At any rate, Hindus are cutting a sorry figure if they deny this chapter of their history”
I agree with ‘Dangerous’
and I too am not willing to accept that ‘which never was’.
Im not an expert on this subject but others who have done deeper research confirm this and so its their words against yours.
A few incidents incited by the Brits does not make it a Hindu culture.
Sati Pratha is nowhere mentioned in Hindu scriptures. Not even a hint of it.
Sati was an ideology invented by the British and there is nothing wrong in saying this truth. Even Swami Vivekananda lamented
“What have the Hindus done to these disciples of Christ that every Christian child is taught to call the Hindus ‘vile’ and ‘wretched’ and the most horrible demons on earth?”
‘Sati’ is an ancient Sanskrit term, meaning a chaste woman who thinks of no other man than her own husband and as explained before.
Sati Anusuiya,
Sati Savitri,
Sati Ahilya
Even Sita Sati who went into the fire never did so because her husband Rama had died!!
all these and others never committed suicide, let alone being forcible burned.
So how is that that they are called Sati?
The death of Madri and other is well explained already.
Sati Pratha is a favourite topic among Hindu-bashers so Im not surprised by your comments.
An author on this subject writes
“The term ‘Sati’ was never accompanied by ‘Pratha’. The phrase, ‘Sati Pratha’ was a Christian Missionary invention. Sati was taken form the above quoted source and ‘Pratha’ was taken from the practice of Johar’, (by distorting its meaning from ‘suicide’ to ‘murder’) and the myth of ‘Sati Pratha’ was born to haunt Hindus forever.
……..‘Sati Pratha’ (in its modern avatar of forcible widow burning) is not a fault of Hinduism but a crime of Islam. Islam is the perpetrator of crime here, and Hinduism, the victim. It is a joint crime of Islam and Christianity.
The crime of Islam was transposed on Hinduism (absolving Islam in the process) by the historical connivance of anti-Hindu forces (Islam, Christianity and Marxism).”
August 15th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
Sati (voluntary) was a well known cultural practice among Hindus and quite different from Jauhar, and it’s well attested to by numerous foreign travellers long before British times who noted that it was usually voluntary.
If one wants to find Sati explicitly mentioned in Indian literature, then go through Tamil Sangam literature which has numerous references to it.
“Yet, the most vivid recordings of
this practice come from the Sangam Tamil
literature. Evidently, a woman either
joined her husband in his funeral pyre or
burial urn, or led the austere life of a
widow comparable to that of an ascetic.
Most cases of Sati are spoken of in the
martial context. It can be argued that
when the king died not only his queen[s],
but also his attendants committed sati. A
queen chastises the courtiers for not
[apparently] performing sati and tells
them that she would rather join her
beloved husband in the pyre than lead the
spartan life of a widow. Not for her, says
she, is the life of a widow who eats one
meal of rice mixed with gingili oil and
neem leaves, and who sleeps on the bare
floor. May you not commit sati, the queen
tells the courtiers, rather sarcastically,
but for me the cold water of the lake is
not different from the fire of the
pyre.[129] And the very next song confirms
that she did commit sati.
Another Tamil woman implores the potter to
make her husband’s burial urn large enough
to hold the widow as well.[130]
Tolkappiyam[131] says that the highest
glory that a woman can aspire for is to
join her husband’s funeral pyre. Those
ethos were emulated not only by the common
women, but even Kambar, who appeared
towards the end of the first millennium AD
seems to have regarded sati quite highly,
for he lets Mandodhari die at the
battlefield once Ravana had fallen.
http://www.indiastar.com/venkat1.html ”
I don’t know why Hindus confuse Jauhar (a wartime practice done by women to save their honor) with Sati (done by some Hindu women voluntarily when their husband died).
In AP the folk epic Palnati Yuddham has pEramma committ Sati after her husband Ala Raju dies, just to mention a specific instance.
The point being Sati was a cultural practice which some Hindu smritis spoke against and which was usually voluntary in a different time and place, i don’t know why Hindus beat themselves up over it, if someone forces a woman to do it, its no longer Sati but murder.
August 15th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
An IE variant of sati was observed by an Arab traveler Ibn Fadlan when he spent time with an eastern Viking tribe. This practice was portrayed in the movie, the 13th Warrior. Sati, or variants of it, was probably practiced by IE people all over the world.
It does no good to deny that it ever existed, as there are copious amounts of references to it in Hindu literature over hundreds of years, before the British (or Muslims) ever came to India.
I do not approve of sati in modern times, but the fact that Hindu women performed it voluntarily as an expression of devotion or love is admirable to me. Obviously the practice was admired by people then too or such women would not have been deified and worshiped in the form of hero stones by the Folk.
Sati has nothing to do with Jauhar, other than the fact that both might have accompanied each other after a battle. Hindu women also took their lives in other ways to save their honor, nut just self-immolation. For example, many Maratha women jumped into wells and drowned themselves to save them from dishonor and rape after the third battle of Panipat.
August 15th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
By the way, these goraized Hindus who are ashamed of Sati and think its the biggest monstrosity may also like to know that martial suicide was a well attested practice in Southern India, ancient Sangam literature mentions 6 forms of martial suicide for a warrior, one of them was cutting off their own head (Navakandam) for Koravai the goddess of war over a vow made for the victory of their commander, there was also the practice of red/blood rice (mainly among Maravar a subgroup of Thevar caste) which literally meant taking part in blood rice before the battle along with the king/commander signifying a fight to the end. You will find stone memorials for warriors like these (called Savankallu?Virakallu in Tamil) and for women who committed Sati throughout Southern India.
I don’t see anyone shedding phony tears that these men did martial suicide, but then again whitewashed Hindus are only known to be “ashamed” when goras tell them to be ashamed of.
August 16th, 2008 at 8:43 am
I have been reading a lot of interesting writing by KE in various forums and groups.
I like his writhings , which reveal his mindset and thinking process. However, I also find that somewhere he goes off track. I am not able to understand what could be the reason for that.
Here, in his first post, he talks about Rig Veda and brands it as ‘brahminical’.
Then he jumps to casts and ambedkarites etc and practises.
In his next post on this topic, he writes in first para some what a meaningful position
which sound interesting and informative.
But then he jumps to ‘hindus cutting a sorry figure…” etc.
What I am not able to understand about KE is
why one should cut a sorry figure, if one has some misunderstanding and is it bad to learn from misunderstanding?
Even when KE writes, he writes with a view to clarify to the readers what he thinks right and with a hope that either his posts educate some and /or, others who differ with his view or have objections to his post, if meaningful, educates him. So why this cutting sorry figure?
And again, sometimes I wonder, if KE has actually tried to understand India and Hinduism , as much as he thinks. I could be wrong, but as one who is so learned and well read, should he not be talking to us on the difference of philosophy, practices, tradition etc?
That is why Hinduism also talks about ” Aachara” - practices.
Practises without knowing the reason, rationality, logic etc develops into blind faith.
Blind faith leads in to such situations and only learned ones when start questioning it and discuss involving public - Satsang - start reducing the impact of the blind faith based practices and slowly but steadily eliminating them.
It is there fore advisable for any one including KE to come out with whatever thoughts they have with reasons. We need not feel either ashamed or embarassed or we need not be slave to such emotive situations.
Thamaso ma Jyotir Gamaya !!!
August 16th, 2008 at 8:40 pm
You’re mixing shame with blatant lies and books by Romila Thappar is hardly worth reading. No Hindu Smritis od old have spoken against sati.
Sati is a positive word for womanhood but somewhere along the line it has been twisted to mean the opposite. Who How and When is anybodys guess. And a guess it will be.
Sati is what the Christians would have you believe. They are still the masters of India and some of you are still slaves to them.
You would even believe that the Vedas is only 3000 years old since the Christians could not envisage that life existed outside their calculations.
Your Christians friends will tell you that Invaders came from outside India and created Hinduism because local Hindus were mere dumb tribes.
They would have you believe that the stories of Hindu scriptures are Myths but stories from Christian scriptures are historical.
You would believe Only their God is real and Hindu belief in God is false.
The Caste System was created by Krishna.
Never mind that, they didn’t even exist.
You would even believe India History is all made up.
Hindus worship stones whereas they worship the real God.
You cant go to God unless you pray to Jesus.
The other religion will have you believe that you cant go to God unless you pray to their God allhaha.
You cant take seriously cow worshippers.
All Hindus are going to hell.
They would have you believe anything they want you to and you will just lap it all up.
We are not their lapdogs anymore but some people cant break out of that habit.
No solid evidence has been produced here that says sati was a Hindu culture or practiced. No Hindus scriptures has ever mentioned it.
Some woman or bloke wrote about his interpretation of suicide or murder and called it sati.
You would deny the very noble meaning of the word sati.
We know that women killed themselves in fire like Madri and Sati and even Sita attempted and it may have been hailed as glorious at that time but that is not ‘sati’.
It is misinterpretations of Hindu culture.
If Sati as you claim was done in Tamil then obviously these misinterpretations may have spread to the South by some foolish person and culture may have arisen.
I guess India is still land where strange customs exit and I wouldn’t be surprised if some people misinterpreted the scriptures and still are.
‘Sati’ is not a Hindu culture or tradition that never existed.
Lol men committing suicide now is called sati?!!
“one of them was cutting off their own he” is this somekind of joke. Lol
August 17th, 2008 at 9:19 pm
I can just imagine KP frothing at the mouth as he furiously typed away his incomprehensible rant.
August 17th, 2008 at 9:29 pm
KP you are a moron who doesn’t know what he rants about and should go fall in front of a public transport bus.
1) What I quoted was from a critical review of Romila Thapar’s book not from the book itself, why don’t you check the reference before you rant.
2) Do you have any point to make or just rant and rave meaningless bs?
3) Sati referred to both a virtuous woman and one who voluntarily mounted the pyre after her husbands death.
4) What next, you are going to tell us that christians erected all those sati stones from ancient times found throughout India?
5) If you don’t have any historical sources then its best to keep quiet or do you want me to quote from eye witness accounts by foreign travellers of women voluntarily mounting the pyre?
6) If you are not familiar with Tamil literature then its best to keep ur speculations to yourself instead of showing ur ignorance.
7) No men who committed martial suicide are called Maveerar usuallyand not sati, maybe you are blind and can’t read what I wrote.
8) You are a dumb asshole who probably wears a sari and bangles while dancing to choli ke peeche kya hai in front of a mirror, and thats why you can’t grasp simple ideas. Cutting off one’s own head has been depicted in numerous ancient sculptures in Tamilnadu, of course those men weren’t choli ke peeche types and thats why they had the balls to do it.
August 17th, 2008 at 10:07 pm
Hey asshole here is something for ur napumsak self:
“The Kalingathu Parani(10) a work which celebrates the victory of the Chola king Kulotunga and his general Thondaman in the battle for Kalinga, describes the practice in detail. `The temple of korravai is decorated with lotus flowers which bloomed when the warriors sliced their own necks` `they slice the base of their necks the severed heads are given to the goddess` `when the neck is sliced and the head is severed, the headless body jumps with joy for having fulfilled the vow`.
The epics of Chilapadikaram (5: 79-86) and Manimekalai (6: 50-51) mention the practice. To ensure the complete severing of the head, the warrior tied his hair to a bamboo bent taut before he cut his neck. Hero stones depicting this practice are found all over Tamil Nadu, and are called Saavan Kallu by locals. The warriors who thus committed suicide were not only deified in hero stones (saavan kallu) and worshipped but their relatives were given lands which were exempted from tax.
http://www.lankanewspapers.com/news/2008/3/26147_space.html ”
And don’t come back for another rant, go check the translations of Manimekalai and Silappathikaram.
More info for an ignorant idiot like urself:
“We never hear of the far more lustrous history of the Peninsula — not of Rajendra Chola’s maritime Southeast Asian empire, nor the wealth and power of fabled Vijayanagar, nor the chivalrous chaver suicide squads in the Zamorin’s kingdom at Kozhikode
http://in.rediff.com/news/jan/14raj.htm “
August 18th, 2008 at 6:58 pm
lol at your anger. Makes you post more believable does it. lol
What a load of crap youve come with
“the headless body jumps with joy for having fulfilled the vow`.”
The head cant think if its headless and I think they are describing a headless chicken here and not man.
There is some serious bad translations here and you want to the world to believe it. Lol
August 19th, 2008 at 1:20 am
wut a thick n dumb loser this guy KP is. no wonder hindus nvr get nething done.
its cuz of losers like him who have no historical sense. you prbbly also believe in PN Oak and his theories of nuclear atomic bomb secrets in the vedas.
u shud follow the advice of harish, and promptly go play in traffic.
August 19th, 2008 at 5:27 pm
Once again the retard shows himself up for the kind of dumb asshole he is, why would anyone write anatomically correct details in an ancient poetical text when most of the ordinary people thought that the world was flat.
Hey asshole, as late as 18th cent, tests were being done in France about whether or not a body is lifeless the minute the head is cut off when criminals were guillitoned.
Anyway all this is besides the point for ur pea sized brain, u must also believe that martians or the xtians erected all those ancient sati stones throughout India.
Adiyaman, i agree with u, its cuz of turdburglars like him and PN Oak that Hindus have become a laughing stock and its no wonder a bunch of senile commies can make fools out of Hindus, when u have scum like KP filling the Hindu community thats to be expected.
August 19th, 2008 at 6:16 pm
Anyway for the more sane types on this site following the debate, here is an ancient sculpture depicting the practice of Navakantam (cutting off ones own head):
http://thina06.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/navak1.jpg
And here is a good description of the practice:
http://thina06.wordpress.com/2007/07/22/self-sacrifice-or-navakantam/
And here you can find hero stones and sati stones pictures:
http://www.kamat.com/kalranga/artifact/veergal.htm
This practice was prevalent all over ancient India and they can be found as far north as Himachal Pradesh.
Of course according to our resident “choli ke peeche” dancer, the xtians planted all this evidence.
August 24th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
A woman dying for her beloved can be attributed to being sati.In kerala you won’t find a Sati temple(word sati in the sense we are using ).
But we do have a temple of Mahavishnu(Shri Poornathryesa) where a festival is held every year in the name of a brahmin lass(nanga penn) who disappeared right in front of everyone in to the garba griha of Lord Mahavishnu, she was getting married that day and had come to bid farewell to the lord to him she had mentally betrothed herself.She is a sati, but malayalis don’t venerate her as one.
Some attribute hindu school of Dayabhaga -this system of hindu law is prevalent in Bengal ( the other one being Mitakshara) being the cause .Since in Dayabhaga system, women had a right to some portion of her husband’s property, so for the inlaws the cover of sati was enuff to stop her from claiming her portion in the family property.
would some one elucidate on this angle
September 2nd, 2008 at 7:44 am
My research shows Sati was never part of Hinduism and not mentioned in the Vedas, Upanishads or Geeta. Having said that, Sasti did take place during Mogul invasions, especially in Rajasthan. It was during the fall of Chitor when the wives of the dead soldiers husbands, knowing what will be their fate in the hands of barbaric Muslim Mogul armies, decided to throw themselves (Johar) in the pyre burning in the Chitor castle. However some sati did take place in Bengal during British rule. Such incidences were deliberately spread in Britain and reported as Hindu practice to justify their own rule and conversions of the natives to their faith. In the process they also declared barbaric Mogul Akbar as the ‘Great Emperor’. I know even today English marrying a Hindu boy or girl is told, as a joke that the wife will have to burn herself if her husband dies first. I have personally heard it. But then Christianity is not a honest religion. I wouldn’t touch it even by the bargeboard.
September 8th, 2008 at 8:11 pm
Apparently, Kumar can’t read.
September 10th, 2008 at 6:09 am
I have no time for thoroughly brain washed people like
Thapper, Tharoor and now Anchi.
So I am out.
September 14th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
I feel very sorry for mentally retarded types like Kumar who have no knowledge of any ancient Indian texts but instead believe in PN Oak rubbish and thinks he is doing Hindus a favor by spreading such nonsense.
So I am out, can’t argue with retarded wankers determined to spread misinformation.
September 15th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
Kumar, you’re the dumbest loser I’ve ever come across.
Scroll up and read all the posts before vomiting your crap all over the place.